Feminism Friday: Don’t you wish you feminists were hot like me
Very, very rarely do I whip out the General Feminism category on this site, so this gives you an idea on just how angry I am. It doesn’t help that for the last several months every single damn one of my comments has been held up in moderation at Feministe, which used to be just a minor nuissance, but now that my comments can be held up to a day before being released, while the rest of the discussion zips by — well, it’s “workin’ my tits” as Tank Girl used to say.
What has drawn my ire is this Feministe article bemoaning how very, very mean Feminists are to all the pretty girls.
There is also the thought that a woman should not be judged or mocked for her appearance, and while her choices with regards to how she presents herself or what she may or may not do to modify her natural body can be questioned, she should not be judged or made fun of or disregarded because of those choices. One can ask why (or why not) a woman wears make up, or gets body waxes, or gets tattoos, works out or diets, gets piercings, dyes her hair or gets a nose job, exploration into the “whys” is…acceptable…but I’ve often seen feminists say that a woman, no matter who she is or how she looks or what beauty rituals she does, or does not, engage in, well, she should not be judged, mocked, or made fun of.
But that happens, even amid feminist circles. And rarely is the woman who does not shave, or diet, or wear make up who is mocked, it is the woman who does. Often times being thin, via nature or diet or time in a gym is thought of something horrible. The intelligence of women who wear make up or get any sort of cosmetic surgery is guestioned, and often they are made fun of. Women who enage in any sort of “Patriarchy Approved” grooming or body ritual, well, when they admit it, they appologize for it. They are appologetic or ashamed of being thin, or wearing eyeliner, or having blonde hair.
A number of people in-thread rightfully called strawfeminists, resulting in some new names popping in to say how very mean they were treated when they tried to go to the feminist parties because they were just too pretty. I’m sure it was just like when Julia Roberts tried to go shopping in Pretty Woman.
Now, I can’t speak to these women’s experiences, but it certainly isn’t the norm. And while exclusionary practices in feminism are not limited to rad fem separatist potlucks (MWMF comes to mind quickly), they’re not exactly standard feminist behavior. So beyond questioning what flavor of feminist shindig she tried to crash–it’s a pretty pointless exercise trying to police every feminist space to make sure they’re nice to the pretty girls.
The problem here is two interconnected points.
Point 1: It isn’t empowering, no matter how much you say it is.
The point of “feminist empowerment” is that you gain power through your own actions. So tossing out an abusive husband is empowering. Getting your degree is empowering. Telling off a sexist coworker is empowering.
While having power conferred upon you by others still fits the overall definition of empowerment, it is not “feminist empowerment.” Flirting with the boss for favor is empowering. So is putting on lipgloss, shaving, wearing miniskirts and high heels. It may get you lots of attention and compliments, but what you are doing isn’t giving you power from within, it’s being granted to you by people who approve of the way you act because it helps bolster the world they like living in. If you feel that you get a confidence boost by putting on the Raspberry Shimmer Lipgloss, it isn’t because there is something inherently empowering about having more noticeable lips–it’s because you’re anticipating and/or internalizing the compliments that you will receive for looking hot.
When a woman between puberty and menopause doesn’t shave, wear makeup, and dress in a manner to show off her figure, society treats her very. differently. I know this, and I know others who know this. A friend of mine described her experience. She is a professional woman working as a graphics designer: “You know I’ve never really been interested in makeup or any of that. Well, a few months ago, I started wearing just a little bit to work. Not much, just ‘natural’ makeup. And it was like… suddenly I was a person. People would say ‘hi’ to me.”
This was a very similar experience to my own. In college, frustrated by a culture of beauty standard that I couldn’t possibly achieve, I dropped out: I stopped shaving and wearing makeup. I dressed in a way that made me comfortable. Socially, it was as if I had just dropped off the face of the earth. I attended classes and did well, but couldn’t find a social group to be comfortable in. Any attempts to insinuate myself into a group were rubuffed, sometimes with the full-body-gaze. It was a special time: when good hygene was simply not enough. For a while, the words that I would use to comfort myself: that those people are shallow, they wouldn’t make good friends anyway, that you don’t want to date a guy who is only interested in how you look — were able to help justify the extreme loneliness that I felt. However, after four years of solitary confinement in the country’s most populated city, I’d had enough. I moved away at graduation, and started doing feminine grooming rituals whenever I would be out professionally or socially. It seems to have worked.
I still shave, and will occasionally wear makeup if I feel the situation warrants it. But there is absolutely no part of me that feels that this is something I do “for me,” because I have seen the other side of things. This is why I don’t give women a hard time for making themselves pretty — because the alternative is a very difficult road to walk. What I do get upset at is that we should as feminists, celebrate women who capitulate and start making themselves appealing to patriarchal beauty standards. We don’t need to celebrate them–the patriarchy celebrates them well enough.
Point 2: Ask not what feminism can do for you
This gets back to the difference between looking for power to be conferred upon you, and looking within for empowerment. The tenor of discussion in these sorts of threads has always been “Yeah, I wear high heels — are you going to take away my feminist card?” or “Can I still be feminist and wear eyeshadow?” or “How much hairspray can a feminist wear before she stops being a feminist?”
Here’s something very important to keep in mind the next time you’re tempted to ask that question: Feminism isn’t all about you. It isn’t! It really, really isn’t. NOW doesn’t hold a special secret conference every year entitled “[Your name here]’s Beauty Practices: How Much Should We Let Her Get Away With?”
Feminists are defined by the level of consciousness they have for other women. They are defined by how much they care for the difficulties faced by women in the patriarchy who do not have the means to overcome it: whether physically, financially or emotionally. Feminists look for ways to create a level playing field for women and men. It’s not a magic mirror that we can look into to make ourselves feel better about every little aspect of our lives.
The next time you find yourself asking “if I wear this skirt, will the other feminists be mean to me” — instead of conjuring up straw-bulldykes or hairy-legged fatties bitter over being single — maybe you should think about the woman who can’t or won’t wear that skirt and get the sort of societal approval that skirt will confer upon you. How does your wearing that skirt ease her burden?
The point isn’t that you’re a bad feminist for wearing the skirt — the point is to be a little more conscientious about your choices because they do contribute to the environment. And if every choice you make props up the patriarchy’s expectation of women, you’re helping to foster an environment where women who don’t live up to that expectation are seen as nonhuman freaks.
So wear the skirt if you like. Just don’t call it empowering.
(For more on this, check out Roy’s post on the topic. Ginmar also weighs in.)
August 24th, 2007 at 11:48 am
I’m not sure I agree. I’m not sure I disagree, though…
As an example: I am a male. I would be much better off if I weighed (many) pounds fewer, have an easier time breathing, sleeping, and even walking. I would d be healthier. I am not obese, mind…
At the same time, I know that my wardrobe is assembled more out of convenience and budget than in making myself look good. I really ought to upgrade it. Etc, and so forth…
If I did all this, I would be more attractive. It would also be indicative of a self mastery which would would be empowering…
The difference between your thinking and mine is that I think the same things done from internal pressure, (but not external pressure!!) are empowering. I do recognize that in a rather misogynistic society, telling the difference between the two is difficult. I look forward to reading why I’m wrong
August 24th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Notice, I’m not taking aim at women who work out or spend a bit more money on their wardrobes — being physically fit isn’t a feminist issue. It’s a health issue. What is a feminist issue is equating physical fitness with thinness, and particularly with equating attractiveness with thinness.
People can translate their attractiveness into real dollars-and-cents. People who are attractive are more likely to be hired or given promotions. When we support a standard of beauty that requires excessive dieting, painful waxing, and expensive makeup and clothing, we’re making it that much more difficult for women who can’t or won’t prioritize those things to succeed.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
All my comments are stuck in moderation at Feministe too. I’m not sure what’s up with it.
Andrew, there’s a difference between how society views (un)attractive men versus (un)attractive women. A woman who is considered ugly is judged much more harshly than a man who is considered ugly. On top of that, the standard for women is much higher than the standard for men. If you were a woman, and got down to a healthy weight and bought nice clothes but did nothing else that you don’t currently do, it would not be enough. You would have to shave your legs, wear ‘cute’ but usually uncomfortable shoes and clothes, grow your hair long and style it every single day, and put on makeup (and there’s probably other things I do everyday that you’d never think to do) just to be taken seriously as a person and not ostracized like Ponygirl was. Even then, if you follow the Patriarchy Approved Model of Attractiveness too closely, you’re a “blond bimbo”, assumed to be an idiot and a slut and considered even less of a person than the ugly girls. Men don’t have to walk that tight-rope. As you said, becoming more attractive for you would be indicative of self mastery. Not so much for women. Even when exercising, we’re supposed to avoid exercises that build muscles, because we’re supposed to be tiny, not strong. The model of female attractiveness isn’t good for any woman. We just fight over it because we’re afraid of what will happen if we drop it. I don’t think any woman who defends her makeup to feminism is honestly scared of what feminists think of her, it’s more that she doesn’t know how she’d face the world if she dropped makeup for feminism.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
“A friend of mine described her experience. She is a professional woman working as a graphics designer: “You know I’ve never really been interested in makeup or any of that. Well, a few months ago, I started wearing just a little bit to work. Not much, just ‘natural’ makeup. And it was like… suddenly I was a person. People would say ‘hi’ to me.”
I have had this kind of experience, normally I wear whatever I feel comfortable in, makeup is something for concerts or when I feel like getting “fancy”. When I do wear it, I get much more attention than when I dress like me.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
All my comments are stuck in moderation at Feministe too. I’m not sure what’s up with it
When I guest blogged there, I had to manually let out almost every single comment that people submitted. The exploded thread? Yeah, I had to let about 2/3s of those through myself. I think Lauren took over at some point when it was, like, 2 or 3 in the morning my time. I don’t know what sets off their filter, but geez is it picky.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
I know that their filter is picky — and esp. now that Anonymous is making themselves problematic, I don’t really want to scream “you can’t handle my truth!” or anything like that … but it seems like ever since I pissed off piny that one time I’ve just been relegated to moderation forever. And when fifty+ comments are posted between when you hit the “submit” button and when they finally release your stuff out … it makes me a little suspicious.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
The Feministe filter aside (never posted there), I read the articles and some comments and found this to be a good question for discussion, at least.
I will admit that I have a sort of beauty standard (for dating, not for friendship) and I am trying to break that, but I’ve got to go over 20 years of images in media and “stereotypes” when I was younger. However, living with two women through my teens have helped me learn to respect the choices women make for themselves.
It’s my belief now that if a man or woman wants to take control of their body and maintain/change it as they see fit, they should be allowed to go ahead and do it. My “standard” may kick in to suggest that “they don’t need this” or “they could use some of that”, but the choice is theirs alone. The problem lies with the rest of society and culture that, by accident or on purpose, does not respect these choices and tries to force a particular “beauty standard”.
In reading more in-depth articles on feminism and learning its nuances, rather than just maintaining a basic belief that women are equal to men and deserve that respect, the situation gets messier for me to agree or disagree with certain points.
I do not know what a woman has to go through first-hand to be accepted in society, but I’ve read and heard enough commentary and stories to realize that there is a definite choice and hurdle that Mighty Ponygirl and Marle have pointed out about the individual weighing the bigger picture and her own empowerment. This is a tough question, and I don’t think there is a right answer unless the ideal of respect for individual choices (womens’ especially) becomes the norm in our culture. My answer would be “do what you want”, and again, I recognize that professionally and socially, the “wrong” choice may cost you.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
What’s most troubling is that women are doing these things that they claim to be 100% their choice, their empowerment, all for them. And this simply isn’t true. No woman would put up with the pain of waxing, the difficulty of heels, or the expense of makeup if it weren’t going to offer her rewards. These things suck!
Doing these sort of beauty maintenance things are (as I’ve mentioned) — very important for getting along in our society. There is no way I’m going to tell a woman that she has to march a path I couldn’t keep myself. But I honestly feel that every woman should try walking the path, just to see what it’s like, so that when she starts wearing makeup and heels and all the other crap, she knows exactly where it is coming from.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
I find it interesting that the OP recently posted a blog post on her own blog screaming that she hoped radfems would die choking on their own blood. And Feministe felt she needed a voice. I thikn I’m done with that site.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
I actually had trainwreck nightmares last night. Honest-to-God trains colliding in tunnels. The metaphores for that thread aren’t even subtle.
Yeah — this might be what makes me take a break from Feministe.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
I’ve been on both sides of this perspective. In my twenties and much of my thirties, I was thin, blonde, conventionally pretty, and wore makeup every day. Frankly I don’t know wtf the folks at Feministe are on about, because I NEVER got flack from feminists, I “only” got assumed to be “lightweight” and dumb by men and some non-feminist women. Somewhere in my mid thirties I stopped wearing makeup and started wearing comfortable clothes, and put on a few comfortable pounds. Frankly, I don’t notice much of a difference from most people, other than that I get fewer wolf whistles.
I came to overt feminism fairly late (not more than about five years ago, although I think I always thought of myself as vaguely feminist). By the time I had, I had discovered how to use tone of voice and body language to make myself be regarded seriously despite my feminine appearance (and frankly, I’ll always look pretty feminine. I have a very curvy body, even with extra weight, and I prefer my hair long and loose… it’s the rock star in me).
I go without makeup and wear comfortable (but professional) clothes because I like myself that way. That kind of “comfortable in one’s skin” feeling is only possible in today’s patriarchy after intense self-examination. Damn it.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Great Post, Ponygirl. I read a comment elsewhere last week about how a great many women are confusing self-empowerment with simply enhancing their value to others, and your post hits that nail on the head.
Re the moderation at Feministe, I guestblogged while they were still on the old server and before they updated their WP platform, and I was still moderating a thread when they switched over, and things are different in the new space. All the guest poster threads are meant to be moderated by the guest posters (indeed the new software doesn’t allow them to moderate others’ threads), and not all of them know how to actually use Wordpress to moderate their own threads. With Jill the main moderator being off in Europe, things are sloooow.
I think Jill’s broad choice of feminist voices as guest-bloggers over this northern summer is generally to her credit. Some are more to my taste than others, granted. I read that post in my feed-reader and shrugged: I could see the train-wreck coming. You’ve got me curious to have a look at it now, but I need coffee first. Strong coffee.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
[...] are you mean jealous ugly dykes going to take away my feminist membership card?” post, but Mighty Ponygirl has a stronger stomach than I do (and more [...]
August 25th, 2007 at 2:27 am
The comment that bothered me the most so far was how not comforming to common beauty standards is a “privilege” that can only be enjoyed by the independently wealthy or self-employed. Sorry, but no. Actually, a lot of women are at a professional disadvantage because they CAN’T AFFORD all of the expensive trappings required for professional success. Oh, and while the blond bimbo perception is real in terms of society, it’s also true that women who are larger or less well turned out are assumed to be stupid as well (too dumb and lazy to put on makeup etc). So um, isn’t that kind of a problem???? I’m not saying that we should be calling women who are conventionally attractive sell outs or anything, but can’t we possibly direct a little bit of attention to the women who don’t or can’t meet societal expectations for appearance and how problematic the fact that they’re at an economic disadvantage is? Isn’t that at least as significant as how uncomfortable someone felt at the Berkeley Feminist Coffee Collective? Because We don’t want to associate feminism too much with the not conventionally attractive, that’d be really a big downer.
August 25th, 2007 at 10:18 am
“What’s most troubling is that women are doing these things that they claim to be 100% their choice, their empowerment, all for them. And this simply isn’t true. No woman would put up with the pain of waxing, the difficulty of heels, or the expense of makeup if it weren’t going to offer her rewards. These things suck!”
This really isn’t true at all, it’s an all encompassing remark that doesn’t take into account other viewpoints or personal histories. I would wear makeup if it was literally the last person on Earth. Or the only person on some other planet. I would wear heels when I feel like it because sometimes, I really like wearing heels. I’ve tried the other way…in fact, that’s how I grew up. And that wasn’t for me, it was for others. Now I dress for me, I shave my legs for me because I like having smooth legs, I like wearing makeup. And sometimes (when I know I’m not going to kill my feet wearing them), I wear heels. My rewards are my own.
August 25th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Why? Why would you go through the trouble of wearing makeup if you were the last person on the planet?
And if having smooth legs is so great, why don’t men shave theirs?
August 25th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
“Why? Why would you go through the trouble of wearing makeup if you were the last person on the planet?
And if having smooth legs is so great, why don’t men shave theirs?”
Maybe she just likes wearing makeup and having smooth legs because…that’s just what she likes.
And men don’t shave their legs because then society would look at them as being feminine…ha ha!
In all seriousness, though, I’m sure there are at least some guys out there that shave their legs. (Now, obviously I don’t have any statistics or other proof to back that up.)
August 25th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
morning comment eaten
evening comment:
“I’m sure there are at least some guys out there that shave their legs”
They’re called swimmers.
August 26th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Maybe she just likes wearing makeup and having smooth legs because…that’s just what she likes.
Which just HAPPENS to coincide with cultural expectations of what women are supposed to look like. The coincidence, it are teh amazings!!!1!!!
“If I were the last person on earth” is not really the test. If she woke up tomorrow and the world had changed so that only men wore makeup and going without was seen as girly, if leg hair were seen as feminine and sexy and shaved legs were seen as lolicon…would she still be doing it?
I’m guessin’ no.
August 26th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
I used to date a guy who shaved his legs. I wish more guys would, especially all those guys who get judgmental at women who don’t. Really, I’d love to see a world where guys and girls who liked smooth legs shaved, and those who didn’t care didn’t (apply this to makeup, heels, whatever), and no one judged the other side, but I don’t think that’s happening.
August 26th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Well, the guy you dated who shaved his legs was probably living with a lot of other guys calling him a fag, a girly-boy, and generally treating him with the same contempt that people treat a woman who doesn’t shave. At my highschool, the men’s swimteam was teased for shaving their legs, even though they had a good reason for it.
August 26th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
But I like to look pretty, I am doing that stuff for myself.
August 26th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
“Which just HAPPENS to coincide with cultural expectations of what women are supposed to look like. The coincidence, it are teh amazings!!!1!!!
“If I were the last person on earth” is not really the test. If she woke up tomorrow and the world had changed so that only men wore makeup and going without was seen as girly, if leg hair were seen as feminine and sexy and shaved legs were seen as lolicon…would she still be doing it?
I’m guessin’ no.”
This is a very interesting scenario.
Well, if the world had changed like that, Mighty Ponygirl and other women who prefer not to go the “makeup and heels” route would now be the ones whose appearance just HAPPENED to coincide with those expectations about what women are supposed to look like.
So if this were the case, would those women who would now be reinforcing the norms established by the patriarchy continue to dress comfortably and receive all the benefits from doing so? Or would they start to “doll themselves up” and start wearing the makeup and heels again to fight the power of the patriarchy and go against the grain, even if doing so took a lot more effort and could be painful and uncomfortable at times? If the “true female appearance” established by society were suddenly really easy to achieve but everything else was the same (so men would still hold more power in society than women), would anybody continue to resist?
August 26th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Greg, you’re assuming that women who don’t strive to conform to every beauty norm do so to “fight the power” instead of, say, because they can’t afford to get a pedicure every week, or because they hate the bother of shaving.
That aside, in a still-patriarchal society there would still be pressure on women to conform and please men. MP might be better off in the not having to shave camp, but she’d still be expected to do whatever it takes to fit a particular feminine ideal that no woman could really match. (”Oh sure, leg hair is sexy, but it has to be blonde.”)
August 26th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Also, as noted in the OP: MP shaves and wears makeup.
As myth pointed out: It’s so convenient that people who do these beauty rituals “for themselves” just happen to have the completely individual, 100% personal “not doin’ it for nobody but me” aesthetic of the western world. I mean, they could believe that the highest personal aesthetic is to wear brass bands around their neck to create a “stretch” look — or shave their head, or bind their feet, or strap antlers to their head. What a wonderful coincidence that they just “happen” to really like the beauty aesthetic that they were raised on.
I have recently moved to an area where the prevailing aesthetic is agrarian. If you wear a lot of makeup and high heels, you’ll look like an idiot tourist from New York, and the locals will shake their head at you. I can’t imagine that people like Elf and Alice would continue to doll themselves up if it just earned them the scorn of their peers.
August 26th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
“I can’t imagine that people like Elf and Alice would continue to doll themselves up if it just earned them the scorn of their peers.”
Know me that well, huh? If I was that concerned about looking “girly”, I wouldn’t be into such “boyish” things like comics and video games. I don’t see either of those things as gendered, but many people do, and many people will subtract “girl points” from me for being interested in them.
If I was concerned about avoiding scorn from my peers, I’d play straight and date guys, rather than be myself and date other women. Or, one in particular as it were.
I do what I like, I shave my legs because I like how they look and feel, I read comics because I love superheroes, I wear makeup because I like how I look in it, and I play video games because I…
Like to. My interests, my personality, my style. For me. No one else.
August 27th, 2007 at 7:04 am
Videogames do not act in the same pleasure principle as leg shaving.
One plays videogames because they are entertainment.
Shaving your legs is not entertaining. Putting on makeup is not entertaining. It is a chore.. The reason people do chores is because not performing the chore results in negative consequences.
Unless you spend your day staring in a mirror, the only way you can experience the positive aspects of shaving and wearing makeup is when people tell you how nice you look or otherwise treat you well.
Have you honestly never thought about doing something radical, like painting dark football player circles under your eyes, or white-washing your nose and cheeks, or piling your hair into three large curls framing your face, completely whiten your face, and paint very small dark red lips? These are all considered “beautiful” in other countries. Why don’t people who do the whole “beauty thing” for themselves and themselves alone practice these forms alternative forms of beauty?
August 27th, 2007 at 10:26 am
“Unless you spend your day staring in a mirror, the only way you can experience the positive aspects of shaving and wearing makeup is when people tell you how nice you look or otherwise treat you well.”
No, they aren’t entertainment, but they are all things I like to do for myself. If I’m busy working on flats, I’ll still put on makeup even if I don’t leave the building all day. No one else sees me, it’s just me. Again, I do it because I like it, and like how I look. Most of the time, I wear full length jeans, especially in winter. No one sees my legs during the winter. I still shave them because I like the results. I like NOT having hair on my legs.
“Why don’t people who do the whole “beauty thing” for themselves and themselves alone practice these forms alternative forms of beauty?”
It’s not my style. I don’t practice a lot of forms of beauty that stems from our own society. I don’t wear earrings…ever. Actually, I almost never wear jewelry. My hair is straight as hell, so other than brushing it, I don’t style it. Why? Because I like how it looks “plain”.
What your argument is that YOU don’t like to, you see things from your point of view and assume every woman agrees with your perspective on it. You see it as a chore to do for other people for acceptance. And many other women might agree with you, but clearly not all. Presuming that we all do is illogical and quite ill-informed. I have no issue whatsoever with people not liking to shave their legs, or wear makeup, or whatever else. What I do have an issue with is someone presuming to know my feelings on something, telling me that things I like to do are a “chore”, and telling me what my motivation in doing these things “really” is. This, in the end, is the same as saying I “should” shave my legs or wear makeup because this is “what women do” in our society. Neither of the points of view allow the choice to fall on the individual.
August 27th, 2007 at 10:34 am
It doesn’t matter if you’re working in flats all day or not — you have been trained to believe that you aren’t attractive unless you shave and wear makeup. I shave because I have been trained to find the scraping of hair under my arms and on my legs to be gross and unfeminine. Men don’t get that training, so men don’t do it. You can pretend all you want that you do these things because it’s “what you want for ourselves” but if you don’t question why you want these things, you’re the one who is illogical and ill-informed.
And it is a chore. If all things were equal, what would you rather do… read a comic book or wash dishes? What would you rather do… shave your legs or play a videogame?
August 27th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Yes, Elf_Girl, we all get that you’re a spirited, independent woman who does whatever she pleases. Go you.
Now that that’s out of the way, perhaps you’d notice MP’s point–which is that one of the reasons you like makeup, for example, is that you’ve been raised in a society where a made-up face is appropriate and attractive for women.
August 27th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
“You can pretend all you want that you do these things because it’s “what you want for ourselves” but if you don’t question why you want these things, you’re the one who is illogical and ill-informed.”
This is an assumption. Your assumption is that, since I still like to wear makeup and shave my legs that I haven’t questioned why. Clearly, from your point of view, if I had, I would find them to be a chore, as well as an aspect of current society that I despise. THIS is an illogical and ill-informed assumption, directed at me and many others. The assumption is that your world view is the only accurate one, and is the only possible one that can be reached when given the evidence. Yet, world views by nature are not the same, they are individual based on personal experiences in life. The old, overused adage that rings true “to each their own.”
“Now that that’s out of the way, perhaps you’d notice MP’s point–which is that one of the reasons you like makeup, for example, is that you’ve been raised in a society where a made-up face is appropriate and attractive for women.”
Society is filled with pre-conceived notions, articles of appropriateness per gender, ideals of beauty and so on. If someone chooses to conform to various parts of these societal norms or these cultural standards because they desire to, are they by nature ill-informed? MP and myths comments that I like wearing makeup because that’s what society tells me I’m supposed to like has a major crack at its base. I presume neither of you would walk around naked, or wearing nothing but a loin cloth. This is because of base ideals instilled at you from a young age, but it is also because you chose to, because you like to. You may not like to wear some of the clothes you wear, but it’s certain that you do like to wear clothes. Everyone has cultural ideals ingrained in them from a young age, from clothing, to grooming, to knowledge and politics. It’s what we do with that when we are adults that makes us who we are, it makes our personalities. It goes beyond cultural ideals to form a new identity. This is why cultural ideals is never stagnant, it’s always changing because the people are changing.
“Yes, Elf_Girl, we all get that you’re a spirited, independent woman who does whatever she pleases. Go you.”
Indeed. Go me. I am bound by my interests and personality, not by society or counter society. I make my decisions for me. You two saying I should agree with you is the flip side of the same coin that says I should wear makeup and shave my legs. It is, fundamentally, no different. Both sides believe they are right and both sides cry foul if you disagree.
I don’t care what you do, as I’ve stated repeatedly in this blog. What I care is that you acknowledge different points of view on the subject and not make sweeping generalizations on the issue. We are not all one group mind, we have different opinions. Such is life, such is humanity.
August 27th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Most children absolutely relish being able to streak, and without getting a little too personal–let’s just say that I would caution you about making sweeping generalizations about my own clothing preferences without knowing how much time I strut around the apartment nude. Do I go outside in my birthday suit? No… because I have been instructed from a young age that it is not appropriate and that there will be negative consequences if I parade around in the buff. If I hadn’t been instructed from early childhood that nudity was bad and inappropriate, I’d probably think clothing for anything but protection from the elements was a totally insane idea. Why put on stuff that was restrictive, scratchy, and silly-looking if it wasn’t to keep stuff from turning blue and falling off?
Again, you are completely missing the point of the OP — that people are not ill-informed for complying to society’s norms, they are ill-informed for believing that they’re doing so because of some ingrained preference that sprang up within them and that they comply with it without any sort of pressure from our culture, and that taking the path of least resistance by following these standards is somehow empowering.
August 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
“Again, you are completely missing the point of the OP — that people are not ill-informed for complying to society’s norms, they are ill-informed for believing that they’re doing so because of some ingrained preference that sprang up within them and that they comply with it without any sort of pressure from our culture, and that taking the path of least resistance by following these standards is somehow empowering.”
Hrm, no. That is exactly what I am debating with you. Everyone is brought up with societal norms, and we take, leave, or change them to fit who we each are. I never claimed wearing makeup was my own invention in style, but how and why is unique to me.
“Most children absolutely relish being able to streak, and without getting a little too personal–let’s just say that I would caution you about making sweeping generalizations about my own clothing preferences without knowing how much time I strut around the apartment nude.”
I never said you didn’t strut around nude, nor did I comment on how much you did. I did say that you liked to wear clothing. Most people do, within almost every culture. Clothing provides layer of protection, as well as style and personality. It speaks to a part of who we are.
Which again, is my point. I already wrote it, so here it is again:
“Everyone has cultural ideals ingrained in them from a young age, from clothing, to grooming, to knowledge and politics. It’s what we do with that when we are adults that makes us who we are, it makes our personalities. It goes beyond cultural ideals to form a new identity. This is why cultural ideals is never stagnant, it’s always changing because the people are changing.”
August 27th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
And you believe that that the decision to leave those societal norms is something that is done without penalty, that accepting the societal norms is something that is done without reward, and that neither carrot nor stick can sublimate into a person’s consciousness to create a sense that the choice of compliance is freely done?
August 27th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
I have gone with makeup, I have gone without. I’m treated no different either way. I choose to go with as that is my preference. Again, your experience does not speak for all, do not claim it does.
August 27th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Well how lucky for you that you’re just so naturally hot that you can take or leave makeup without any negative consequences. Now that you’ve made sure we all know what an absolute babe you are, would you like to start a round of “don’t you feminists wish you were hot like me” ?
August 27th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
“Well how lucky for you that you’re just so naturally hot that you can take or leave makeup without any negative consequences. Now that you’ve made sure we all know what an absolute babe you are, would you like to start a round of “don’t you feminists wish you were hot like me” ?”
Hrm. I never said nor hinted that. There are many reasons why wearing or not wearing makeup for me would provide no difference in how I am treated by others. Why I am treated no differently is irrelevant in the context of this debate. What I said was that was my experience; which is what my take on all of this is. That my experience and your experience do not always match, even if we do share the same gender. I know others who have similar experiences. They, also, are people you have never met, nor do you know. Would you care you make assumptions in personal nature as to their looks, motivations, and reasoning? Or perhaps it is just easier to conceid that your experience is not all encompassing, that your reasons for what you do are your own.
Your standpoint is very egocentric. You claim your experience is what all women experience, that your views are what all women see, and that your reasoning for putting on makeup is the reason all women wear makeup (or shave, or whatever). You believe that anyone who disagrees with you must be either foolish or delusional and you give no room for a difference in opinion or experience. This is your fallacy in your argument, this is where your argument falls apart. Experience is by definition individual, therefor no one experience is the same. You may have similar experiences among a group, but even then they will differ. When it comes to human experience, no one person can say “What I see is what everyone else sees.”
August 27th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Ah, my argument is neither egocentric nor fallatious. The only place that it falls apart is when someone genuinely egocentric blithely denies that they live in a society where good looks are rewarded and ugliness is punished. Not only is experience individual, but so is perception, and if you perceive that you aren’t being rewarded for making yourself pretty that doesn’t mean that it ain’t so. Study after study has shown that women are punished professionally and personally for not adhering to the beauty standards set up by the culture.
In short, I say it is the sun, Petruchio.
August 27th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
“The only place that it falls apart is when someone genuinely egocentric blithely denies that they live in a society where good looks are rewarded and ugliness is punished.”
Ah, this is also not what I said. What I said, and have repeated is that I wear makeup because I want to, not because I feel I have to. I have also stated that your view that everyone does it because it is a “chore” is the view that everyone holds, whether they “know” it or not is a generalization and does not speak for all women. In my experience, I have received no further help nor hindrance in wearing or not wearing makeup, respectively. My girlfriend has seen no difference either in how she is perceived. It is not an issue of beauty that we are discussing, for if it were, I would likely be in agreement with you. We are debating over motivation in style and appearance.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:33 am
When it comes to human experience, no one person can say “What I see is what everyone else sees.”
Indeed. So why are you deeply invested in saying that because nobody cares if you wear makeup, it must therefore be true that a) there is really no societal pressure or expectation that women ought to wear makeup, and b) your choice to wear makeup is made in a vacuum?
I like wearing heels. But I don’t feel the need to pretend that if I grew up in a society where nobody wore heels except manly men, and wearing flats were seen as feminine and appropriate, that I’d be wearing high heels as much as I do now.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:14 am
“a) there is really no societal pressure or expectation that women ought to wear makeup”
I never said nor implied that either. I said that my decision was my own. Which I wrote repeatedly. I guess you weren’t paying attention, but first:
“b) your choice to wear makeup is made in a vacuum?”
One response, already typed and posted: “Everyone has cultural ideals ingrained in them from a young age, from clothing, to grooming, to knowledge and politics. It’s what we do with that when we are adults that makes us who we are, it makes our personalities. It goes beyond cultural ideals to form a new identity. This is why cultural ideals is never stagnant, it’s always changing because the people are changing.”
The argument that I am debating is this: that I wear makeup because I have to in order to conform to society, not because I want to.
My point is that I wear it because I want to, not because society tells me to. Society provides the base of cultural ideals, I make what I will of of those ideals and make my own identity. , I wear it because I like to. That’s it…that’s how simple it is.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Whether or not the decision to conform to society’s expectations is conscious or unconscious is what we’re debating. For some people, it is a conscious decision, for others, it is an unconscious decision that the conscious mind attempts to reconcile by claiming that it was made without any influence.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:23 am
You’re looking at the situation with an incredibly childish perspective. It isn’t that black and white. The debate is exactly that, that your perspective on the issue is limited and flawed.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:42 am
That’s adorable. The woman who crashes my blog to stick up for patriarchal beauty standards when I’m trying to argue a nuanced position of coercion and sublimation is saying that I have a childish perspective.
Anything else?
August 28th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
The argument that I am debating is this: that I wear makeup because I have to in order to conform to society, not because I want to.
That may be the argument you’re debating (because it’s easier), but that’s not the argument MP and I are making.
MP and I are saying that one of the reasons that you see makeup as attractive is that you live in a society that presents makeup as something women ought to wear, and need to be attractive. We’re also saying that women tend to be penalized if they don’t choose to, or are unable to, conform to standards of what is “attractive”.
One of the reasons you “like to” wear conventional makeup is that you’ve been presented all your life with images of made-up women as attractive. Is your argument really that if you’d grown up in a culture where makeup on a woman was seen as inappropriate and ugly, that you’d like it just as much and wear it just as often?
September 5th, 2007 at 12:45 am
MP, great post. I think this sort of issue is so divisive because it gets at the core of how pervasive the patriarchy is and no one likes the feeling that their choices are being defined by external forces. I think also that it gets more heated than it should because when people are critiqued for a behaviour, they get defensive about the behaviour - the issue here is not so much that women should or should not spend time to change their appearance to be more conventionally attractive, which is a personal choice, but whether or not such an act can be seen as empowering. My personal response there is a pretty fast no, but I also don’t think that a male opinion should be anywhere near a central part of discourse on the topic so I mostly lurk in comment threads.
September 5th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Thanks, Ben. I don’t think that your ability to say “it’s not empowering” should be silenced, because it’s a dissenting voice “from the other side of the fence” (so to speak) that women don’t often hear. It also happens to agree with me. :p As you can see, sometimes we get a little bristly when we argue these things, because we have different interpretations of male gaze.
This isn’t unlike the argument I’d had with my mother shortly after 9/11 about fuel efficiency. I’d been making the argument that we’d had a bit of a hand in making this mess we were in because you could trace the money we give to Saudi Arabia to power our SUVs to fundamentalist Islamic institutions from which Al-Qaeda would have an easy time recruiting. She drives a CRV and her reply was “Well, I just like having a little more car around me.” I explained that it’s not like the people in the training camps are shouting “Death to America! Death to Americans! Except for [my mom's name] because… well, she just likes having a little more car around her!”
We might not see the direct negative impact of our actions on our own lives. We might even decide that our actions have no negative impact. But that doesn’t mean that we aren’t responsible.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:38 am
Differentiating personal choice from “empowerment”: