Boys’ body image at risk too — Gaming magazines to blame?
Not exactly breaking news, but an article I’m sure we’ll probably be pointed to again and again about how sexism hurts men too… or something: this summer’s publication of Body Image by the University of Illinois includes a feature on how boys suffer negative body image by reading gaming magazines.
“In a nutshell, we found that exposure to video gaming magazines, which are immensely popular, increased boys’ subsequent drive for muscularity, more than exposure to other, more realistic ‘ideal-body’ magazines like sports, fashion and fitness,” Harrison said. This effect, she said, “was significant regardless of how thin or fat boys perceived themselves to be.”
“Given the extreme muscularity of the characters represented in the video gaming magazines, and the magazines’ popularity among boys and young men, I believe much more research on the topic should be done in the coming years,” said Harrison, whose scholarly research focuses on issues of nutrition and eating, perceptions of ideal-body weight and the impact of media on these variables.
So the feminist sits back and anticipates the hue and cry over the unrealistic character design and how it’s hurting the poor boys developmentally, while she tunes the world’s tiniest violin.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:51 am
I have always been shunned by the “Old Boys” clubs. I am an unconventional, rebellious, intelligent, out-spoken, artistic… and slender. I was raised for a large portion of my childhood in Texas where, because of my slight frame, I was often mistaken for a girl until such time as I got old enough to shave my head and start wearing eye makeup. Then I was often mistaken for a homosexual. By that point, I’d rather have people hate me without really knowing who I was than have to deal with them expecting me to be as big a bigot as they were simply because we shared a skin tone and similarly shaped generative organs.
Even in my adult life, I have done everything within my power to live free of the prejudices many people mistakenly feel I must have because I am white and male. Because I refuse to exhibit the “appropriate attitudes” I am thoroughly excluded from the power structure.
So forgive me if I’m saddened, and a little upset, by your callous disregard for the fact that institutionalized sexism cuts both ways. Female people often mistrust me simply because I’m male. Non-Caucasian people often mistrust me simply because I am white. White men like me well enough until they hear me speak, or until I ask them not to tell sexist and racist jokes around me. Then they regard me with as much antipathy as I generally regard them.
This isn’t a win/lose scenario. When you exhibit disdain for another’s suffering because they have exhibited disdain for yours, it tilts the scales toward lose/lose. So male action figures developed outrageously large biceps (bigger around than the character’s head in many cases) much later than Barbie dolls had outrageously large breasts. It doesn’t make the underlying social assumptions any newer, or less difficult to deal with.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:10 am
Corvus — you’re allowed to be as saddened and upset as you want to be for my callous disregard for the fact that institutionalized sexism cuts both ways.
In the words of the immortal bikini kill:
“I’m so sorry if I’m alienating some of you. Your whole fucking culture alienates me.”
The point of my callous “disregard” for the fact that boys will suffer negative body image after reading Game Informer is that at no point will the ensuing great Won’t Someone Save the Boys public awareness program even condescend to address the fact that there are plenty of unwholesome and depressing images for girls to get upset over in the very same magazines.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:37 am
Do you honestly think there will be any outcry at all? Men are trained by our culture to scoff at such things, after all. I’ve seen very similar articles like this in the past and they’ve come and gone with no awareness programs or support groups or anything.
You want fairness in reporting? You want balance? You want both sides of the issue to be addressed in every article? Then practice what you preach and be inclusive rather than exclusive.
How many articles and movements and awareness programs are there about women’s body image and how it’s impacted by the media which surrounds us? What percentage of those include the fact that men are being fucked by the very same messages? I’d be willing to bet it’s less than .01% of them.
After all, the point of my original comment was that my whole fucking culture alienates me too. In fact, our media presents us with images that we cannot live up in order to entice us to consume their products in a futile attempt to try and become what we can never be. This is a cultural issue, not a gender one and until people from both sides of the problem reach out and close the gab, we’ll always have this terrible rift keeping us enslaved to an unfair system.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:44 am
Because men immediately lept to women’s aid when the articles about how women’s body image in negatively impacted by magazines, rather than trotting out endless suggestions that sex sells, and there’s nothing wrong with liking a scantily-clad woman, and if women are so upset by these images why do they keep buying the magazines, so we’re being totally unfair by not dropping everything and rushing to the aid of the poor downtrodded mens.
I’m not suggesting that body image doesn’t cut both ways, I’m suggesting that the second something about sexism hurts men, men go on and on like women have it so easy.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:06 am
The oppression of the system is such that calling out “racism!” “reverse racism!” “reverse sexism!” is here to render all true complaints drowned out in a sea of crying wolf. This is the effort that drives us to having no perception of what is right and wrong and allows those who control this system to continue their ways that extend their own power and influence while corrupting and oppressing those that disagree.
The fact of the matter is that as those different are segregated out and seek fairness in the system; those that are oppressing are calling foul and claiming they deserve consideration instead of a balancing of the scales.
Where is the justice when the system says “whoa wait; before I can make things right, we need to take a bit more away first”? How can there be equality when the first instinct is “what does this get me?”.
I’ve read gaming magazines for a long long time; I can’t honestly recall where this “body image” bit came in. Maybe I was distracted by the giant robots blowing up aliens every other page; but I certainly don’t feel these magazines had any impact on my own body image or what I think of myself. If you really wanted to; we could probably go through a good decade + of PC Gamer and Nintendo power and whatever else and compare how many male “stereotypes” we see vs how many female ones there are. Does anyone seriously expect that analysis to come up with anything other than the obvious?
There’s a lot of talk of exclusion from the power structure of the system; but from a post which supports that power structure through it’s undermining of a position that challenges that system. A slight change in behavior or appearance by seem to have closed doors in texas, but that’s not true in most blue states away from the core of that power structure. But can anyone who falls into a demographic that is truely oppressed expect to move and change that perception? Of course not, because it’s widespread, it’s indoctrinated, it’s propogaded across the country. This is not something one can outrun it is everywhere and a problem that will persist until it is directly addressed.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:14 am
“Because men immediately lept to women’s aid when the articles about how women’s body image in negatively impacted by magazines”
Men as a collective may not have, but I have. And other individual men I know have and do. But if men, as a collective, do something that is unjust, does that make it just to response in kind?
I am not interested in a continued conversation, “he said, she said,” but in one of, “We say.”
We say that media projects unfair messages about body image. We say that our culture minimizes the importance of personal responsibility. We say that corporations are allowed the freedoms of speech without the responsibilities of citizenship.
I’m suggesting that an approach of inclusion would be more useful to you in attaining your own goals. When someone points out that men too are impacted by these harmful messages, a response of unity would strengthen your message and theirs. A divisive response only harms both parties.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:16 am
er… “respond in kind,” and, “continued conversation of,” obviously… typing hurriedly at work wrecks havoc on my proof reading.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:17 am
Care to give me any more pointers on how I run my blog, or should I just sign it over to you so that you can make sure that exposing the oppression of men receives the sort of space that we mean feminists have denied it?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:30 am
Wow. I apologize for trying to initiate a dialog. I’ll return to admiring your blog from a distance and refrain from commenting next time.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:36 am
Oh, don’t leave just yet, I’ve almost got the damn thing tuned up.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:40 am
But he said the patriarchy hurts men, too! Doesn’t he get a cookie for that?
’sides, I’m one space away from bingo.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:44 am
Notice he wanted a dialog, not a conversation. He wouldn’t even respond to Funiculus’s excellent comment. I guess he figures he can take a girl in a fight–tell her how feminism really is.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:56 am
Okay, let me make a less bristly apology then…
I recognize the embattled nature of being a vocal feminist in the gaming industry and I certainly did not mean to suggest that you ought to run your site any differently than you do. I apologize if I came across as another male stuffed shirt telling you what to think and feel.
I will not run the risk of insulting you by suggesting that I “get it” or that I “understand completely” because I know that I don’t fully.
Even though I rail against institutionalized bigotry, I am able to pass as a member of the old boys club. It’s like a rich kid slumming it for a while. They know that daddy will always bail them out when they run up to much debt and I know that if I’d only take out the ear rings, wear a blue shirt/khaki slacks combo and at least chuckle at the more “minor” racist and sexist jokes, that I could easily be a part of the old boys club. Hell, I even have a conservative, gun carrying, southern Baptist father who would happily introduce me into the pantheon of asshats that run the south.
But while I don’t profess to know you, or what you go through, I do empathize with your position. I try, in my daily life, to counter the misogyny I see around me. I’m also hippy-dippy enough that I just wish we, as a culture, had more inclusive “fear for” reactions than exclusive “fear of” reactions. But that’s probably best discussed elsewhere.
I’d also like to clarify that by “admiring your blog from a distance” I meant keep my interactions with your site confined to my RSS feeds for a bit. I have no intention of cutting myself off from your message, which I consider to be an enriching portion of my daily gaming reading.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:00 am
How is a dialog different than a conversation? A dialog, by definition, is a conversation between two or more people.
I didn’t respond to Funiculus’ comment because I was more concerned that I had offended you and wished to address that. Additionally, I have no idea what Funiculus’s gender is, so accusing me of further sexism because I did not address him(?) is just picking a fight.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:16 am
Is it so important not to offend me?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:23 am
“Is it so important not to offend me?”
Yep.
a) I did not intend to be contentious.
b) You’re the host here and my comments exist only at your sufferance.
c) I respect your opinion and I don’t like offending people I respect.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:31 am
a) You’re allowed to disagree and be contentious–and we’re allowed to tell you to go soak your head if we feel that you’re off the ranch in being so.
b) My sufferance does not extend beyond posting guidelines, of which you did not cross.
c) see a) and b) — offending me takes a lot. I’ve been to a lot of forums and seen a lot of shit. Some of it’s even happened here.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:33 am
Fair enough. Still, my point was that I’d like to see more bridge crossing and cooperation on cultural issues such as this. Divisive and discourteous behavior, even as inadvertent as mine was, are hardly conducive to that message!
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:47 am
And my point was that, like so many instances, people only get worked up over feminist issues if they can make it not about women but about how men suffer.
I’m going to borrow an analogy from another feminist board I belonged to:
Pretend that you, Corvus, have just lost an arm to a piece of heavy machinery. You are desperately trying to get the tourniquet tied off to stop the bleeding, when I run up to you, waving a nasty gash on my hand in your face. “Look Corvus!” I yell, “Isn’t this horrible? Isn’t this the worst thing you’ve ever seen? Don’t you feel so bad for me? Truly, I understand what you must be going through because I too am bleeding! Don’t you want to help me? Quickly, get the bandaids and ointment, this problem must be addressed immediately!”
The point isn’t that the gash on my hand is insignificant, nor that it’s not important to address, but now imagine that I’m the one who runs the factory, and because I’ve been injured, the staff doctors rush past you in order to bandage my wound, completely ignoring you, who is but a simple line worker.
This happened most recently with the HPV vaccine. When it was being suggested because women who get HPV are more likely to get Cervical Cancer and that this vaccine could help prevent cervical cancer, we were giving all sorts of airtime to the nuts who complained that this would “encourage promiscuity” as if that was somehow worse than dying a slow painful death from cancer (not to mention the whole bullshit of a kid knowing what she’s being vaccinated against). So what do they do? Instead of taking them on and saying “You’re being misogynist assholes, you want women to die horrible deaths because they have sex” we get a slew of reports about how HPV can cause Penis Cancer (sometimes). So this is how we deal with sexism: we don’t address the root cause of it, we find some way to make it harmful to men too so that it suddenly becomes important enough to be acted on. Which, if you’ll excuse me, is a pretty shitty attitude to take, and I’m getting damn sick of it. Not to say this is what you’re doing, but if you find yourself locking horns a lot of feminist boards because PHMT*, this is probably why.
*Patriarchy Hurts Men Too
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:48 am
I hardly speak from experience when saying this, but I think while negative body images are probably no less difficult and cruel for men to go through than women, Id imagine its easier for men to escape it (or at the very least some of the time) than women. And by escape, I mean much easier to find things or places or other people who don’t concern themselves with the way they might look, or don’t look. I might not experience these things being a guy who might be considered the “norm”, but I’m pretty sure I can see for myself the constant pressure on women and the way they “should” look. How women are most of the time defined by how they look. I think being overly concerned with negative body images for men when issues on women’s looks are the way they are, is like trying to put out the fire that is burning some bushes in front of your house, while your house is also burning to the ground.
Again, I’m pretty damn sure this issue is often horrible for men too, but I don’t think people should get carried away with it. I suppose its kind of like white people suffering racism. I’m sure it happens and its bad, but unless its in a place where its neglected, or even supported by society, it kind of takes some of the sting away in comparison to other peoples situations. Or maybe its nothing like that, I don’t know. I do know that I agree with MP; its right to be pissed that some people will most likely scream murder about what some of these “poor boys” are going through, even when there is an even worse situation right in front of them.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:16 am
Thing is, men get a whole lot of positive images over a wide range of body shapes and sizes. I’m gonna talk about TV for a minute here, because it’s got the most obvious examples of this. With a very few exceptions, women on TV are thin and pretty, and nothing else. On the non-thin-and-pretty side, there’s Camryn Manheim, who has a small part as the Ugly Friend to Jennifer Love Hewitt’s breasts in Ghost Whisperer. There are the Wise Older Black Ladies in Law and Order, Gray’s Anatomy, etc. Hell, look at Ugly Betty. America Ferrera is pretty even through the glasses and the blue rubber-banded braces and the unfashionable clothes.
Men come in a much wider variety. James Spader is sexy as hell, but he’s not classically handsome. There are fat men, skinny men, muscular men, and they’re not played for laughs or made off-limits sexually. Christ, look at King of Queens. Yeah, it’s a sitcom, but it also sends the message that the fat schlub of a guy can still get the hot girl. (Nice Guy wish fulfillment much?)
In video gaming men are mostly portrayed as heroic, but for the 1.623×1047th time, they’re heroic, not sexualized. Women are sexy and almost never anything else. Do you see the difference?
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:24 am
To put my position in the context of your very apt metaphor:
If my arm were cut off and someone with a severe gash on their face came up to me, I’d probably suggest we help each other out… the one with the worst wound first. I’d like to think I’d suggest the same if I had a gash on my face and the first person I found had just lost an arm.
I do understand the inequality of the situation. I just wonder if a better solution would be to incorporate rather than isolate. So when someone notices that men have flawed body image issues (for instance– penis size, now there’s a body image issue perpetuated by both sexes that causes a lot of insecurity in men), rather than take a, perhaps justifiable, approach of “what about young girls, they have it worse,” taking an approach of, “Yes! Us too, for years now! Let’ work together to correct the messages we send to our youth,” might be more beneficial to both causes.
(that sentence was a train wreck sorry)
After all, if little boys stop worrying so much that they’re not masculine enough, maybe they’ll stop being such sexist jerks.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:40 pm
The problem is, it’s the deeper issue that needs to be fixed. The root of the problem is the preferential treatment. In the analogy MP used, the greater problem was the overall unfairness of treating one person’s concern because they are part of this elite group.
The example she used of HPV is a perfect example. The underlying problem is not that HPV is bad and it’s taken a while to see it. It’s because so many didn’t care until it was an “important” group.
Well why haven’t women been part of the “important” group? Why wasn’t this addressed sooner? Why should women have to wait until a “poor male” suffers to get help? Why is it that suddenly it’s a problem if it wasn’t before when only women had it?
Why, exactly, have women had to redefine these problems to include men? “It hurts men too!”
Great. So where does that leave women with the REST of the issues that affect them and not men? Where does that leave anyone not white with the REST of the issues that affect them and not white people? What about the poor and the problems only they are affected by?
This article covers a symptom, not the disease.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Not to get too side tracked; but on the issue of HPV, here’s a drug developed over decades that wipes out nearly 80% of a very nasty family of diseases that cause all sorts of horrible problems, cancer, and sometimes even death.
Now imagine you’re a scientist working on this and you feel like you’ve just done humanity a great service. You’ve found a prevention for a malicious *cancer*. CANCER. You’re thinking you’ve just done the world a great turn; made things a better place, and now you’re a villain in the media because they think women are so simple minded they can’t be constrained from not having sex without this *one* of many types of STD’s out there to threaten them.
Think this doesn’t affect you? Think again. What happens when those same scientists now have a chance to work on a drug that could cure or prevent HIV? Or some other serious disease with a harsh stigma attached? What happens if we as a society continue to allow our best minds from being discouraged from applying their talents to curing the diseases that cause our suffering?
The science is there; we can cure diseases with the application of our abilities if we don’t waste our time letting these things be political soapboxes. We should all be behind efforts that ease the suffering of others from these many harsh diseases.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Money for this stuff, unfortunately, is budgeted by politicians. In our culture, you can’t really separate the need for money and politics from the need for research. Rare is the person with money, power, and resources that does something for an altruistic purpose.
You ever feel like you’re preaching to the choir here?
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Just a bit, reverend…
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:15 am
The unfortunate side effect of the web, I’m afraid. Only interested parties even come here.
With the body issues: Men don’t have it as bad as women, but we have other issues. Especially those who don’t fit in as normal. I’ve been confused as gay before as well, and have generally been ridiculed for being small. I still think that it’s more important to focus on women’s problems IN GENERAL, and deal with our own in what ways we can, simply because there is so much work left to do for women in the world. There are places where women are thought of as property, or worse, so I think there’s ever so slightly more to do in that arena. KTHXBYE.
With respect to HPV: Why do we somehow think that a.) the ability to have sex is bad and b.) women have no self-control? That’s my problem. Do we have so little faith in the women we’re raising that we think they’ll go out and just f their little brains out if there’s a greatly reduced risk of pregnancy? It reminds me vaguely of Reefer Madness. Besides, what’s wrong with sex? We’re so damn protestant…
June 24th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
rather than take a, perhaps justifiable, approach of “what about young girls, they have it worse,” taking an approach of, “Yes! Us too, for years now! Let’ work together to correct the messages we send to our youth,” might be more beneficial to both causes
Say, Corvus, I have an even better approach. How about the guys with the penis insecurity realize that hey, this is just another manifestation of the sexism that hurts women just as much–perhaps, if you can imagine such a thing, even worse? How about the guys say “We’re being hurt by this too, and we want to work with you to stop it”?
Instead of, as in your proposal, putting it all on the women to stop their complaining and do all the work of building a coalition.
June 25th, 2007 at 8:45 am
“Say, Corvus, I have an even better approach. How about the guys with the penis insecurity realize that hey, this is just another manifestation of the sexism that hurts women just as much–perhaps, if you can imagine such a thing, even worse?”
I agree, they ought to. Many of us are. Unfortunately, when we try to talk about it publicly we are usually attacked from all sides. Many feminists shrug it off tell us to shut up because their problems are worse. Many non-feminist women dismiss us as people because they figure we’re probably gay and therefor not viable mates. Manly men… well, as men we’re not trained to talk about such things and attempts to do so are often greeted with derision or outright hostility and sometimes, physical violence.
“Instead of, as in your proposal, putting it all on the women to stop their complaining and do all the work of building a coalition.”
I certainly don’t ascribe to that principle at all, mythago. Where do I advocate that only women do the work? I have no wish to see the onus placed exclusively on women. Had this been a post written by a man about how women needed to stop whining about sexism and gender discrimination, I’d have argued against that and far more vehemently than I argued here. I frequently do, in fact. In fact, the only reason I posted here was in an effort to be a part of the conversation, hardly what I’d call expecting women to do all of the work.
In fact, I have a published article about the unfair portrayals of women in gaming magazines. I have written posts about how condescending most attempts to make “girl games” have been. So here I am, one of those guys who a) realizes that sexism harms us all and b) is trying to build bridges and treat people like people, rather than treating them according to their gender. Has it done any good? Have my thoughts been accepted in the spirit of open discourse? Have I been treated like a person, or like an interloper, a man?
I consider myself an ally of feminism. A great many women who know me would agree with that. But allies aren’t just the people who agree with everything you say. Sometimes they challenge assertions, ask uncomfortable questions, and present alternate view points.
June 25th, 2007 at 10:42 am
You’re being kind of defensive. Please stop. Your comments would be summarily dismissed and you would be thrown off of the board if the “spirit of open discourse” was not present on the board. You are welcome here!(1)
None of the comments here are personal attacks, they’re attacks to your arguments. Use logic, and see if you actually have a viable argument. If you don’t, admit your loss and move on. If you have to clarify, do so. I don’t think your feminism is in doubt, though I could be wrong.
(1)-I think…MP owns the board, I just post here.
_>
June 25th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
I also just noticed Moira’s comment from last week. Yes, Moira, I am hard pressed to disagree with you. The media does present a wider variety of acceptable male body types. I’m marginally tempted to go into a long, wool gathering, exploration of the social elements that lead to that, but this probably isn’t the place. I can say that reality of peoples’ reactions isn’t always so kind.
Thanks for that, Ghilemear. I didn’t feel terribly defensive when I wrote that last comment, but I did feel the need to point out that Mythago was making incorrect assumptions about me and what I was saying. I intended it to be an argument against the underlying assumptions I perceived as well as the actual statement.
But clearly, this is an emotional issue as well as a rational one (at least for some of us). So, I’m not sure that failing to address the emotional aspects in favor of being totally logical is all that useful. Still, I’ll work harder to not sound so defensive going forward.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Unfortunately, when we try to talk about it publicly we are usually attacked from all sides.
Yes, how horrible that when you rush over to the line worker with a severed arm to show off your cut, that the line worker doesn’t immediately shout “You’re right, boss! Join with us in shutting down the deadly machine!”
Allies don’t agree with everything you say. They also don’t whine that you are being mean to them, that you aren’t thinking about their feelings too, and that it’s your job to educate them and to do all the work of fixing things. Oh, and they don’t get confused when you point out that “ally of feminism” is just a fancy term for “I’m not really a feminist, myself, but I sorta kinda think your goals are good ones, at least when they help me.” Because, you know, you could always call yourself a feminist instead of weaseling out with ‘ally’.
Where do I advocate that only women do the work?
Please review paragraph 3 of your response in 22. Rather than the person who just noticed they have a problem, you insist that it should be the women who have been getting the short end of the stick–and who have been raising concerns all along–who should STFU about the whole “yes, and it’s worse for us” in favor of suggesting they work together.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
And Corvus, next time you’re feeling defensive: try to think about how the women here are feeling. Heck, you don’t have to guess; MP makes it pretty clear in her first post, and in her injured-worker analogy. From our POV, we’ve been talking about these things for some time and getting everything from “sex sells” to “STFU” in response. Now, when boys are affected, suddenly it’s an important issue.
And when we point that out, our “allies” tell us that we’re being unhelpful, that they feel picked on, and we should make nice and try to work together.
So do you think that most of us are inclined to be ladylike and timid and politely ask the gents to notice what we’ve been saying all along?
June 25th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
I don’t consider myself a feminist because my overall philosophy is focused on people, not gender. further, I think that the focus on gender is the inherent problem behind institutionalized sexism.
I don’t see how that’s arguing that only women should be doing the work here. As my comments are on a feminist site, I addressed only one side of the equation. Perhaps I ought to have been more clear, but I have repeated throughout my comments that men ought to recognize this isn’t new or specific to them. If I were speaking to the person who just noticed they have a problem, I would have said something along the lines of, “Now you know how women have felt all along. Look at Barbie dolls, look at fashion magazines, look at the warped presentation of women in pornography, look at games and look at romance novels. Women have been dealing with destructive and objectifying portrayals of their bodies since the dawn of time. Maybe now you’ll have some sympathy for them.”
My only point in all of this, and it applies to both genders, is that defensive, reactionary attitudes towards sensitive issues are not constructive. Clearly my reactions throughout this thread, as well as others, bear this point out.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
From our POV, we’ve been talking about these things for some time and getting everything from “sex sells” to “STFU” in response. Now, when boys are affected, suddenly it’s an important issue.
Sure, I get that. My initial response was not the most useful. For the record, I think responses like “sex sells” and “STFU” are reprehensible and I am often ashamed to share a gender and sexual orientation with those who say such things.
Also for the record, I’m actually glad that I’m being taken to task for my failures of communication. As much as I try, I am still a male and subject to cultural oversights. This has been a pretty humbling communication experience and an excellent learning one.
So, thanks.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Oh, and you’re absolutely right that I exhibited a distinct lack of empathy in my comments.
June 25th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
If I were speaking to the person who just noticed they have a problem, I would have said something along the lines of, “Now you know how women have felt all along. Look at Barbie dolls, look at fashion magazines, look at the warped presentation of women in pornography, look at games and look at romance novels. Women have been dealing with destructive and objectifying portrayals of their bodies since the dawn of time. Maybe now you’ll have some sympathy for them.”
That’s kinda what MP said.
I appreciate your trying to be more aware about all this. Just consider that it’s unfair to excuse defensiveness by males while insisting on perfect behavior by females, devoid of anger or anything that might make somebody, like, defensive.
June 27th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/faq-arent-feminists-just-sexists-towards-men/#more-100
Corvus.. you just reminded me of this post I read awhile back. Thanks.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:54 am
That’s a good link Rhiannon, thanks. I’d like to clarify my position a bit further, if I may as I clearly did not present a full picture in my earlier comments.
I think that terrible crimes have been perpetuated against women in our culture. Terrible crimes. They range from casually insensitive responses to concerns about sexism to a pattern of violent oppression and a rule of fear.
I think that when women improve their lives, it is to the good of everyone, men included.
I think that feminism is one of the three most important social movements of our lifetime, civil rights and gay rights being it’s companion.
I think that most men would greatly benefit from receiving empathy implants.
I don’t think that having dismissive reactions to the all-to-brief and all-to-infrequent moments of male awareness is beneficial to feminism. Rather, it strikes me as a perfect opportunity to reach out and convert more men to the cause.
I did not mean to imply that I thought men should receive more attention then women for having identity issues. I did not mean to imply that it fell only, or even primarily, to women to mend any social rifts.
If we lived in a perfect society, everyone would be judged as individuals and we wouldn’t have such deep hurts running through our culture.
Sadly, not one of us are perfect and I stand at the front of the “please upgrade me” queue.
June 28th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Corvus, I’m glad to read all that. Learning how to communicate what you REALLY mean is crucial to human interaction.
Thoughts on the topic of this post (since I haven’t commented on it yet)
Yes, boys get body image messages too. Yes it harms them. The image of overly masculine, overly muscled, greek god-type caricatures are common. The femme-bishi type is becoming more common (i.e. Vann of FF12) but you would NOT be hard pressed to find the opposite or even moderate versions in video games. The Bishi’s and the Buffs are the two most well known arch-types for males in gaming. But there’s a lot more variety and lot more males in games than you will ever find for females… the image-trap that exists for males is not NEARLY as overwhelming as it is for females, in general.
But comparing a cut to a gaping wound will heal neither. And in the ER, the gaping wound gets treated first. (or it should, except for the damn HMO’s… but that’s a different topic entirely *coughUniversalHealthcareCough*), so my sentiment is somewhere between feeling genuinely sad for males affected negatively by masculine stereotypes in gaming/other media and rolling my eyes, giving them that aggravated and sarcastic “oh you POOR baby” look, while MP plays the world’s tiniest violin.
June 28th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
I don’t think that having dismissive reactions to the all-to-brief and all-to-infrequent moments of male awareness is beneficial to feminism.
Um, rushing over to the guy who lost an arm and shouting “Look! I have a bone bruise!” is not exactly what I’d call awareness.
Real awareness means one doesn’t expect a cookie for being aware.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Huh?
I loved the points you made in 33, mythago. When I do this to my wife, she tends to get good and outraged…I, for my part, tend to hide.
Mostly, I think this kind of thing adds to feminism’s male supporters, if only because it makes some of us go “Oh! That’s why we’re a-holes!” A necessary kick in the pants, if you will. Not all men need it, but it’s nice for those who do. Again, feminism is the radical notion that women are people, too.
(If anyone knows who said that quote, let me know, it’s a fav of mine)