The problem with Drow
In the Idealizing Fantasy Bodies thread, the conversation turned from body dysmorphia in World of Warcraft to the issue of the Drow as a Matriarchal, Matrilineal society and how it is or is not feminist. I thought that this was well-deserving of its own post and its own comment section.
For those not in the know: Drow (or dark elves) are an evil subrace of high elves in the Dungeons & Dragons world. They live underground, and are frequently employed as assassins. Their world is matrilineal and matriarchal, with male drows (or drones) serving at the pleasure of the matron of the house as slaves. The primary goddess of the drow pantheon is Lolth, a chaotic-evil spider-woman/demon who has insinuated herself as the primary deity in drow culture. Drow society is (naturally) highly chaotic, where houses are constantly at war with one another, with priestesses and matrons keeping their power by being the strongest and killing any challengers. Despite the fact that women are firmly in charge in this society, the most popular and well-known Drow in the novels and games is a male by the name of Drizz’t Do’Urden; who escaped the Underdark, but is being hunted as a result.
Although Lolth is the primary diety of the drow, they have two other options when it comes to worshiping dark elf dieties. The first is Vhaeraun, who is the god of Drow males, poisoners, rogues, but is in opposition to Lolth, although not too much. The other non-Lolth god is Elistraee, whose purpose is “…song, swordwork, hunting, the moon and beauty. Her worshippers are good-aligned drow hoping to escape the evils of the Underdark’s evil, Lolth-worshipping matriarchal society, and regain a place in the surface world.” (source: Wikipedia)
Generally speaking, when we talk about what’s wrong with Drow, most of us are thinking of Drizz’t clone #427 who annoys us online, or newbie roleplayer goth kid who wants to play a badass elf assassin. But we never really ask ourselves why drow remain such an attractive choice for these people. We have to look at how the drow melange reflects and reinforces our own culture.
Why it’s important to leave the governing to the men
If you ask a D&D player (particularly an older one who hasn’t kept up with all of the new expansions) to name a matriarchal, matrilineal society in the Dungeons & Dragons world in less than five seconds, they’ll either reply “Drow” or “I don’t know.” While certain expansions may offer barbarian tribes or small nations as having government by women, Drow are and will remain the primary example of “when women run things” in the D&D world.
So what does that look like? Well, it looks evil to start off with. Children being sacrificed to spiders and people turned into statues or scorpions, betrayals and assassinations everywhere, slaves, (both labor and sexual) and general anarchy. In general, it reminds me a lot of a certain Pat Robertson quote. This woman-run society is not a cheery place at all. And while you can find most of these same qualities (minus, the transmutation aspects) in a very real, non-fantastic male-run society, we are never challenged to think about this, because the women-run society is an exception both in the fantastic realms and in our own reality; so it is a bellweather, and not a means of reflectivity (unlike certain half-assed Next Generation episodes).
As to the anarchy, it’s not just general anarchy, it’s the anarchy of power struggle between families. Houses fight against one another to vie for power and influence. Unlike the power struggles of the non-matriarchal world which involve kingdoms, armies, land, and money; drow struggles involve households, families, neighbors, and the favor of Lolth. They more closely resemble catty fights between suburban housewives than epic struggles between kingdoms; or sisters fighting between each other for the approval of a conniving mother. It is anarchy based on the worst stereotypes of women–it’s a soap opera. It’s no more empowering than a middle school locker room.
If this is the best example of women running matters; it’s not making a very good case for allowing women to have power.
The outsider, the hero, puttin’ the bitches in their place
As mentioned earlier, the most well-known (and oft-copied) drow is not a woman. It’s a male named Drizz’t.
From the Wiki article on Drizz’t:
Drizzt was born in Menzoberranzan in 1297 DR as the third son to Malice Do’Urden (then Matron Mother of House Do’Urden or Daermon N’a’shezbaernon) and was originally meant to be sacrificed to Lolth (the usual fate of the third living son of any house), but was spared minutes after he was born, as the eldest brother, Nalfein, had been assassinated during a raid on another house by his second-oldest brother, Dinin. Drizzt was thus the second living son and not the third. His sisters were, from eldest to youngest, Briza, Vierna, and Maya. His father, Zaknafein, was the renowned weapons master of House Do’Urden and secretly hated drow society as a whole. He taught Drizzt the way of the blade, and more importantly, taught him a moral code.
Drizz’t is not just a character, he is a symbol for how fucked up the Drow matriarchy is. Sons are sacrificed, and the men must instruct one another in secret in the methods of subversion. For every young white male out there convinced that affirmative action has put the women and minorities in power and that white men don’t have any power anymore, Drizz’t can be a very compelling symbol of a resister, someone who does not accept the rule of women. (The irony of Drizz’t’s race does seem to escape them). I take it as no coincidence that the guys I’ve met who played Dark Elf Men On The Run From The Underdark (DEMotRftU) don’t take much prodding to start in on how maligned white men are in this country, and how women are evil conniving bitches. The first time I was ever referred to as a “cunt” by a guy I thought I was a friend positively loved Drizz’t. He also loved to tell racist jokes even when you told him you weren’t interested. Strangely, he’s not my friend anymore.
But back to Drizz’t. One of the aspects of Drizz’t’s personality is that, in combat, he can enter a state of barbarian rage known as the Hunter. During this time, he is described as being a feral being, purely instinctual and savage, without compassion. He is all Animus; the pinacle of what many consider to be the male beast-mind, free from the superego (the “nagging mother”). The Hunter shares similarities with mythological warriors like Enkidu, although unlike Enkidu, Drizz’t will never be “tamed” by a woman.
It isn’t fair to proclaim that every Drizz’t clone being trotted around the RPG landscape is a racist, sexist asshole (anymore than the racist, sexist assholes you meet playing dwarves, or humans, or half-orcs). But if a guy suffers from a persecution complex because the feminazis and the blacks are out to get him and take away his white guy birthright, there’s something compelling about playing this elf on the run. As well, the dual-personality, of a hidden, “true” form of rage and retribution must resonate with men who feel the urge to lash out at their perceived persecutors; and their “mastery” of their own Hunter instinct must give them tremendous satisfaction, while they can also take comfort in the knowledge that it’s there — and if those bitches push much more, they’ll regret it.
I like my women empowered. Pick up that whip because I said so.
The opportunity to play a Drow does extend beyond simply checking off Drow - Male - Ranger and getting your angst on. You’re just as likely to meet a Drow woman online (and her whip).
It’s no surprise that men and women who pla
May 30th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Drizz’t clones are evil. Stab stab stab, the Drizz’t clones >.> There are few more annoying archetype chars in any online setting, IMHO. More on this later.
May 30th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
That certainly was a doozy of a post Mighty Ponygirl, and while I loved it, I wont deny this whole subject had me a little on edge (perhaps even somewhat defensive at times). Most likely because I have thought about many of these things before, if only a little. I have questioned whether I am actually doing wrong for liking the Drow. Most of the time I just come to the conclusion that things arent as bad as they first appear as long as you look at it from a certain point of view. The only problem is, all of those “certain points of view” have absolutely no basis in reality. Outside of my opinions on the game, I cant defend the only matriarchy being an absolutely evil one, or the problem of “light elves = good. Dark elves = bad”.
Those two are at the most common gripes I have questioned before, and to actually enjoy the Drow, I have to, in some ways, put them out of my mind. For example, with the light/dark suggestion, I would normally bring to mind situations where the circumstances are reversed. One that first comes to mind would be the Borg from Star Trek: TNG, who all happen to have an extremely white and pale complexion (Im a pretty pasty guy myself). After that I would just think to myself that its the way it is, and there isnt any serious meaning behind the Drow being evil and having black skin, just pure coincidence. (I think the colour people normally describe the Drow as having is like polished obsidian. Thats me being nit-picky though). And when I question the Drow matriarchy I normally try to rationalise it with points from the game itself. In the end perhaps this explains some of my unease about the subject, and that in a sense its all just a cop out when I do that.
Those problems, like with Drizzt clones, and guys who might just like the Drow for the opportunity to play “teh opprezzed”, are what I have to work my head around to actually get to what I like about the Drow. One of the things I like about the Drow is provided you look at their history with a sympathetic eye toward the Drow, they are simply the victims of manipulation and neglect from their surface (light) cousins. Perhaps thats something of a hypocritical view after what I mentioned about guys looking to be “oppressed”. That just applies more to my taste in fantasy though, and the views I have developed regarding self righteousness and arrogance (which is normally the reaction youll get out of me when asking my opinion of Forgotten Realms surface Elves).
There are a plethora of other reasons on what I think about the Drow and why I like them, but I think Id rather not waste everyone’s time going through them. Other than that though, I wanted to mention something of Eilistraee. What you pointed out Mighty Ponygirl, about Eilistraee and the whole “beauty” thing. That is at least something I can admit is a slap across the face, without a shadow of a doubt. Without even looking as deep as that, you can see something is wrong just by looking at the fact that her priestesses have a ritual of dancing *naked* in the moonlight. Now granted, that could in some ways be tied to the whole Elven/Beauty thing, but something tells me that the intentions could possibly be a little more sexist and juvenile than that. Or at least, very likely to be interpreted that way by certain types of guys who learn of this Eilistraeen ritual.
But despite my citing Eilistraee as a positive for the Drow, I cant deny that things still are very awkward with regards to her being the only Drow goddess to posses good qualities. My truthful opinion varies somewhat too, since certain novels I have read suggest a slightly more anti-male feel to Eilistraee, so that all that saving “teh menz” is worthless anyway. Although sometimes I get the impression of the complete opposite, so Im not entirely sure what to make of her.
That said, as far as I am aware things are supposed to be changing drastically for the Drow, especially given novels that I have read which I believe are supposed to be canon. However, after all this, I still continue to like the Drow, even if I always seem to do so with an edge of scepticism and guilt perhaps.
May 30th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
I remember the NWN server Eilistrae population *skyrocketed* after someone released a nudity hak. -_- All of a sudden there were ‘naked’ drow dancing about in every settlement every spare chance they got. “Good Drow RP” has always been something of a red herring in my book ever since then. Maybe I’m just cynical…
May 30th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
I’m so glad you commented! I know that this was a doozy of a post and it was taking careful aim at something you loved, so I just want to make something very clear:
I definitely wasn’t trying to target you and make a post about how “TheBends was wrong,” in fact, I really liked the drow discussion that was going on in the WoW dymorphism thread, I just didn’t want two discussions going on at once, and I felt like I could have expressed my feelings a bit better than I was in the short little comments.
Even with this doozy post, I still haven’t really gotten everything off of my chest.. particularly “role reversal” with drow (like all of the drow women all bound up porn that’s a little too easy to find on the internet when you’re just looking for a picture of a drow for the top of the post). There seems to be a lot of delight- which I think sits quite comfortably with rape fantasy- with subjugating drow matrons. This is how our culture reflects on a culture like the drow.
And I agree with you about things like the relationship between the drow and the high elves — maybe things aren’t as cut and dry as we’d like to think they are …. but that dialog isn’t really being had in place of all the Drizz’t clones and BDSM fetishizers.
May 30th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
How much is this an effect of D&D being 30+ years old, and how much is modern sexism? I’m asking since many D&D staples seem pretty outdated, like the rigid, black and white alignment system.
I’ve stopped playing anything but White Wolf’s Exalted nowadays, and that seems to be pretty much free of the kind of problems discussed here.
May 30th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Ah, I know you werent targeting me personally MP, but like I said, I have thought about these things myself before. In all honestly, they are plain for all to see, so it has to be expected really. Still, it was a great post, and I very much enjoyed it.
Hertza, I think D&D alignment can be interpreted as “rigid” in some aspects, but I dont think you should knock it too much. I take things like Morrowind (TES actually*) as a fine example of an opposite. There is no real “good and evil” per se, and its pretty much do what you want, but without any focus for your character. For me, without some of those guidelines, I completely lose focus on that side of things. I no longer care about my characters actions, and in what light they may be viewed as. I just do stuff.
With D&D alignments I think they cover lots of angles really well. Ill only list mine, but I love the chaotic neutral alignment. Thats one Im most likely to use, because its not “black and white”, its kind of a free spirit alignment. “Good” and “evil” are irrelevant, you just do whatever strikes you on a whim.
Basically what Im saying is D&D works for some people, and certainly by my standards its not at all rigid.
May 30th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
In my experience there’s no system truely free of any complaint in the real of RP dice games. It speaks more to the players than the system, afterall. Recall that if you made an idiot proof item, the world will always make a better idiot.
Ergo, a system with the best intentions invariably has those who find some way to use features/advantages/nifty-things-for-players to degrade the experience of others. Whether this is through interference with their game directly, creating or spreading objectionable ideas and material, or just harassing a player.
As we’ve read in this very blog, even PnP sessions are not immune to this phenomenon (and I always thought the ability to slap such a jaberwacky tended to diminish the occurances of such nonsense…but apparently not).
The double edged sword that is freedom cuts both ways in reality as well as in games. You give the players a fascinating race and history and invariably you get Drizz’ts or players playing up the absolute worst aspects as the core of their RP.
May 30th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
TheBends:
I can see how a alignment system works better in a computer rpg, but in a paper-and-pen rpg I personally feel it’s a bit of a relic, kinda like the Tolkien take on fantasy. I prefer a freer, more complex take on morality that’s more relativistic than absolute good and evil. That feels like a modern view of things though, which is apparent in White Wolf’s rpgs. It’s also why I asked how much of a relic the sexism is in an old game as D&D.
May 30th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
If it’s that much of a relic, people wouldn’t be continuing to base sexist behaviors off of it.
May 30th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Well, I can only compare to more modern games I’ve played. They seem to have evolved with the times to be better. But I guess sexist players can ruin anything.
May 30th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Oh yeah, White Wolf is not sexist. Nope, not at all. It must be those sexist roleplayers ruining things (rolleyes).
May 30th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Aieee, the Savant and Sorceror cover! My eyes!
Speaking of pictures, even the one you did find has issues. It’s not quite so blatantly SM-themed, but the posture she’s in is very much a submissive, subordinate ‘do me’ pose, what with her wrists crossed over her head and all.
May 30th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
I never said White Wolf was free of sexism or that Exalted was perfect. Also, that one cover has been rightly denounced by a lot of players. It’s says a lot more of Hyung-Tae Kim’s style than of the game. If you want to write off the whole game based on one old cover, fine. It’s supposed to be a Drow/D&D discussion anyway.
So being 30 years old means nothing for the sexism in a game then?
May 30th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
so you knew a lot of people MMOing 30 years ago?
May 30th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Gee, what could I have meant if I refered to D&D as a 30 year old game? Pick one:
1) Computer-based MMOs?
2) The pen-and-paper D&D, on which everything else is based on to some extent, created by Gygax in 1974?
It seems it is now MY turn to roll my eyes.
May 30th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
not really. We’re not talking about the stuff that’s laid in stasis for 30 years. We’re talking about stuff going on right now, stuff that has been going on.
May 30th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
But a game created today would stand a better chance of getting things a bit more right, even if you can’t make a game free of sexism. The way I see it, D&D has some old baggage that makes it easy for sexists to like it, and unnecessarily hard to play it with less sexism. It’s not an excuse or anything, just an observation.
May 30th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
You can’t just blame things like sexism on old data. Sexism continues on this day. I have do doubt that the exact same scenario would have been written today.
Savant and Sorcerer was 3 years old, and it’s sexist.
Age is not a factor if people are still exploiting it. It’s not about old baggage. If it were old crap that’s irrelevant I wouldn’t be blogging about it. You can’t compartmentalize everything into neat little isolated problems and then dismiss them one by one, or at least, you can’t here. If it were just a matter of ancient baggage, the drow would have been quietly retired. Instead, they have grown increasingly prevalent in D&D lore:
1978: Vault of the Drow module is released for Dungeons & Dragons, introducing us to Drow, Driders, and eventually Lolth.
1990: The Dark Elf trilogy is released following the Icewind Dale trilogy two year’s prior. Drizz’t is unleashed.
2003: Hordes of the Underdark is released as an expansion for NeverWinter Nights.
May 30th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Responsibility for the Savant and Sorceror cover cannot be laid only at the feet of the person who drew it. Someone, some several people, at White Wolf decided that it was the best cover to use for the book. Other art choices throughout White Wolf’s catalogue are less blatantly objectifying of women, but that’s not the only one.
Just because D&D has been around for a while doesn’t mean that the folks responsible for making it shouldn’t work to make it less sexist. I’ve heard people argue that the real world is patriarchal, why should fantasy worlds be any different? Because we should aspire to better, dammit. We can do better than the Drow for fantasy-world matriarchies. Probably at this point they’ve acquired too much pornographic baggage to be salvaged, but there really could be some society in D&D with women in charge that doesn’t eat babies.
May 31st, 2007 at 2:17 am
So I’ve done a few things like my Gender Roles in RPG Texts. You might also look at Morgan Davies’ analysis of Dragon Magazine covers for a similar study.
I have not systematically gone over this based on publication date, but I have gone through a number of works published at different times with an eye towards markers of sexism. Sadly, I don’t see any clear signs that the games of today are much less sexist than in the early 80’s. I just glanced through my 1982 copy of Champions, which had a fair mix of female characters in the examples — and did about as well as more recent games like D&D3 or Star Trek.
May 31st, 2007 at 7:32 am
Mighty Ponygirl:
The only one trying to make up excuses for something here is you, for my rampant sexism. I was merely asking if the age of a game has anything to do with things and if it’s better or worse today. I’m definitely not trying to find excuses to feel good about my own gaming. I’ve played Exalted with a lot of people for a lot of years, so unlike you, I know what the game is and what it can be. If you think it can be summed up in one peek at one cover of one book, fine. Your loss.
Anyway, nubile fantasy wenches wasn’t an issue at all when D&D was new, and now some people at least react to stuff like the S&S cover. Again, not an excuse, just an observation.
Moira:
I’d say that all blame is on the White Wolf people for the S&S cover. Hyung-Tae Kim merely drew it. White Wolf have some pretty sexist people onboard, that’s been clear for a long time. I mean, just look at that Pimp: The Backhanding game. But not everyone is sexist, and not every book they publish drips with sexism. I merely meant to say that the S&S cover isn’t indicative of the contents (it’s a crunch-heavy spell book) or the game in general. It wouldn’t be the first product in history marketed with a lousy cover that uses sex to sell.
May 31st, 2007 at 8:05 am
Hertza — I’m not making up excuses: I’m merely reflecting your own words back on you.
I can appreciate that you’re not here to troll, which is why I haven’t banned you — but just because you’re not here to troll doesn’t mean that the way you’re interacting here is ok. Just because you like something and you don’t want it to be sexist doesn’t mean it isn’t sexist.
You said yourself several threads back that you were interested in how design can be better geared towards women in a way that isn’t sexist. This is a noble aim — but you have to just STOP trying to make excuses for things like bodyarmor, makeup, jubblies, and sexxed up women characters that are not there for female identification but for male identification. I can appreciate that you have a long road to travel if you’re serious about this, and I’m not saying that you can’t find battlethongs attractive, but by trying to argue with us about the sexism of battlethongs is not a way to endear yourself here.
You wrote:
Just because White Wolf doesn’t have a culture like the Drow doesn’t mean it’s free of problems, as you yourself just admitted talking about the Pimpslap game. It’s OK that you play White Wolf, it’s OK that I play D&D, and you know what, it’s OK that TheBends plays drow characters. The problem isn’t “Drow players are sexist!” it’s the culture surrounding people who play drow without thinking consciously about the things that go into the drow character.
Too often game companies like White Wolf and Dungeons & Dragons overthink marketing the game. They have to know that there are women gamers too. They have to know that covers like S&S will be a turnoff to those gamers. So they imagine that they’re catering more to their “primary” consumer…
…But the thing is, that men, even teenage boys, don’t need everything to be porn. They don’t! Yeah, they appreciate a little porn (or hell, even a lot of porn), but they understand that porn should be porn. Ss I’ve pointed out in previous threads, porning up your coverdesign may actually have a cooling effect on the people buying your product: they know that companies are trying to sell them sex and seeing a trussed up wench in a battlethong is more likely to make them thing “hm, this module is probably not much good if they need to put porn on the cover to sell it.”
But what’s important is not to derail this thread into talking about just cover designs, or just the age of the product — the article was extremely sweeping covering the genesis, evolution, and present-day application of drow in PnP and Online Roleplaying games. There isn’t a “keystone” to this other than sexism. Not one aspect of the things I’ve talked about would mitigate matters. If there wasn’t Drizz’t, it would still be sexist. If Eilistraee wasn’t there, it would still be sexist. If it was written five years ago instead of thirty years ago, they would have still made porned up dominatrixes in a catty society. It all works together–that’s how Patriarchy operates.
May 31st, 2007 at 8:24 am
A somewhat unrelated point, but while people may despise R.A.Salvatore for creating Drizzt, I have actually heard people much more familiar with Drow than me praise him for actually writing his Drow priestesses with robes. I certainly still have some other problems with his writing, and the whips are still there. (I think they are supposed to be a sign of station). Still, at least he wrote them with *actual* real life whole-body-covering robes, instead of S&M gear. Or skimpy little bits of webbing that only cover a few -select- areas of their body, unlike some illustrations have done. Its rather strange actually, when you look at some of the drawings, and then say to yourself “But she never wore that *thing* ONCE in the entire book!”.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:10 am
I appreciate that you’ll discuss this with me. I wouldn’t waste time here if I didn’t think you wrote sensible and thoughtful things. I do realize I need to give up or change some things I like, but to do that I need to know how some things work and compare to other things. If that comes across as making excuses, well I guess I have to work on that.
I’d still say Exalted is pretty good when it comes to sexism, but I guess that’s partly due to the people I play it with. I didn’t mean it’s free of sexism, but of the specific problems you listed for the Drow. As I read your article I compared it to things I know, and it made me wonder how different the games are.
I totally agree with you about pornified games being unnecessary. The S&S cover did indeed have the effect you describe. It seems the White Wolf people need to think about the difference between an adult game and a pornified game.
I didn’t mean to find the one big solution (or excuse) to D&D sexism by asking about what role the game’s age plays here. I did honestly mean that as to ask what part it plays in the bigger scheme of things, not that it’s old and hence sexist and that’s that, now let’s all go roleplay sultry Drow dominatrices.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:32 am
The 3rd wave line on these matters is pretty much: Don’t give up something you like because it’s sexist–just don’t lie to yourself and claim it’s empowering.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Drizzt worships Mielikki, not Elistraee.
Also, Elistrean society is matriarchal too - Elistrean houses are led by matrons, and only women get to be priestesses and stuff.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:20 pm
I saw biographies to indicate that he worships both.
But if Elistrean society is matriarchal, why the “brotherhood” ?
May 31st, 2007 at 12:45 pm
The brotherhood would be the Vhaerunians. According to the Wikipedia, the clergy of Eilistraee are called the Dark Ladies.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Personally i dont see what point your trying to make, and that conclusion is mainly based on the true fact that Drow society is what it is. The subject about women dominating men, and drow being evil vs surface elves, and Lolth worshiping drows VS Elistrean worshiping drows..
The discussions listed above are the subject of never ending debates, much like the “Good Vs Evil” dogmas that paladins are so regid, and forced to adhere to.
These posts, while very intersting to me (being a 12+ years DnD RPG fan), they do irritate me to some degree. Roleplaying genres are FANTASY settings, people often play them to massage their creativity, and intelligence and to escape from reality, thus when you try and slap real life issues, very prevailant issues on top of make-belive settings, such as feminism/gender roles in fantasy games, it just causes many headaches and angry comments.
I play DnD, because I can escape from reality for awhile, step through a gate to another dimension, and use my imagination with out being worried about adhereing to real life philsophical debates they are talked about to death on a daily basis.
Is the drow society played by mostly men in female personnas? Yes it is, some play female drow because it challenges their thinking and creativity, some people play it for a simple change of pace from surface situations.
Is the drow society extremely sexual in composition? Big time. Drow society is all about power and respect, and who commands it, as well as their ability to hold onto that power from others who grasp for it as well. Women rule, because for one reason or another they have -the power-
As for the extreme role gender plays in drow society…it is a common belive, and some say a proven fact that sex -is-power, and the drow society is built, and triving on this notion, thats just the way it is.
As far as…the portrayal of sex in drow society, nine out of ten people would, and do consider drows to be heavily drenched in BDSM, so what? The real world generally doesnt understand the need, or reason for modern day people to partake in BDSM style activitys.
Some people who play drow females dont have a problem with the portrayal of sexual acts in drow society, mostly because of their maturity levels,…others dont realise it, but acting out bondage/whiping,/rough sex, gives some people a psycho-sexual fufillment, that they would normally be looked down upon if caught doing it in real life society.
It is all about escape from reality, we all need to escape from real life once in awhile…who cares where we go, or what we do while we are -gone-?
May 31st, 2007 at 12:56 pm
I’m gonna ask TheBends to factcheck this one — it would appear to mitigate matters some — but, if I read it right in the research, wasn’t Vhaerun murdered by Eilistraee? If so, what changes have been affected as a result of this? Has the Brotherhood been dismantled, or is Eilistraee still allowing it?
I think that Eilistraee is a little better in that light (the “dancing naked” thing sounds a little too porny for me to feel A-ok with her), but even then, she’s not going to win; as I said, Evil Lolth-worshipping drow are too much a mainstay of adventurers.
Thanks for commenting, btw. Always good to see new faces.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Ryan — you either didn’t read the article carefully enough, or you didn’t read it at all.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:13 pm
I don’t really know that much about the matter, I only read some articles about it but last I heard Eilistraee murdering Vhaerun wasn’t even official cannon yet.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Yeah, Vhaeraun is the one who in a sense speaks out for “equality” between the Drow, but Vhaeraunites are still just a “brotherhood”. (I think most female Drow recognise that, and that is why it remains that way). Eilistraee’s worship is almost all female true, and they dont exactly shout out for “equality” unlike Vhaeraun (thats most likely a deception), but more for redemption for the Drow.
When I read through Elaine Cunningham’s Starlight and Shadows though, they hardly had what I would call a “matriarchy”. I dont recall ever hearing of Eilistraeen “houses” because it seems Eilistraee, like many other Forgotten Realms deities, doesnt influence a society like her mother Lolth does. She just concentrates on her worshippers, without influencing others that live alongside them (though I think many worship her, because they feel she has “redeemed” them). I believe things are pretty similar between surface Elves and Eilistraeens, in that things are pretty much equal between the sexes, yet you might find a higher concentration of male/female worshippers for a certain member of the Seldarine. And consequently since there is only Eilistraee, thats all there is for the Drow who follow her worshippers, bar not worshipping anyone at all.
- For Mighty Ponygirl - *Major spoilers for anyone reading Lisa Smedman’s Lady Penitent trilogy, and in particular Sacrifice of the Widow. Dont read my post if you are reading those*
In a sense, it would appear that Vhaeraun’s portfolio has been consumed by Eilistraee, when she “killed” him. (the book “neglected” to cover this, and we were simply informed of this event) This mainly happened because Vhaeraun ordered a few of his followers to gate him into Eilistraee’s domain, and they subsequently learnt that he had “died” afterwards. However, given the Vhaeraun takes after his mother Lolth much more than Eilistraee, I believe her either deceived her into something different. Or (in my opinion more likely) has come up with a scheme with her, against their mother.
The opening of the book is set up as a chess game, so I believe you have to look at events as “moves”. And you see from the beginning Vhaerauns penchant for trickery.
Though you are correct, there will be chances in that Eilistraee will either convert the Vhaeraunites, or destroy them. (one actually committed suicide on the spot when he learnt of what happened, so make of that what you will)
May 31st, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Just to avoid confusing anyone with my mistake it should be:
“However, given the Vhaeraun takes after his mother Lolth much more than” Eilistraee, I believe *HE* either deceived her (Eilistraee) into something different.”
Apologies.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:20 pm
OK, thanks for that — I’m not a big Fantasy reader anymore; I really liked the Dragonlance series and I’m a little ashamed to admit that I liked the crappy Ravenloft books — but I had youth and stupidity on my side for that :p
RPGeek — what were your thoughts on the rest of the article?
May 31st, 2007 at 1:33 pm
RPGeek, I think your right about his “death” not being canonical. If not for the shaky facts surrounding it, I think he and his followers (along with certain characters like Drizzt, Gromph and Jarlaxle) represent something for any insecure men to grip on to. I think they are there so *NOBODY* ever gets the impression that Drow males, despite females holding the power, are the “weaker sex”. Something tells me the Drow (as a FR race and an idea) would have been finished long ago if it didnt present something for male egos out there.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:35 pm
I think drow surely can be interpreted in this way, though I also think you are looking too much into it.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:46 pm
RPGeek — I’ve been accused of that — but I don’t believe that there should be areas of pop culture that should be magically exempted from feminist critique.
And since this site is for Feminist Gamers, we occasionally take a close look at sexism in _____ (fill in blank with something about gaming).
I’d like to thank you, though. You’re being a lot nicer than the commenters on certain other forums that have linked to this post.
May 31st, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Your right…maybe i missed the point, I was merely making a point that basing, or forming an opinion on a fantasy setting, against reality criteria is inherently…unneeded, as it defeats the meaning of the word -fantasy- or makebelive.
May 31st, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Nice writing. I don’t agree with all points just as presented, but I like sharp and extreme points, because they make people think from other points of view, and that’s always good.
Good points about Eilistraee was given, and I’ll add my two cents… or what I remember now that I type this the third time. Canon lore allows only female clergy, while her followers are of both sex, and she preaches equality of the sexes much more than Vhaeraun… whom I don’t think of as a deity of equality of genders. He’s too male-oriented for that.
May 31st, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Not so. Fantasy has shown time and again the ability to influence people’s perceptions of reality.
May 31st, 2007 at 3:24 pm
When a fantasy setting is informed by and reinforces real-world stereotypes — here we’re talking about a society where women have control over men and is evil to its very core — then it’s worth commenting on. Especially when there are no countervailing portrayals in the D&D gameworlds, particularly the Forgotten Realms. The Drow are the only major example of a matriarchal people. Why isn’t there one example of a benevolent matriarchy?
May 31st, 2007 at 5:54 pm
As for Eilistraee, do they still depict her female followers as naked all the time?
May 31st, 2007 at 6:42 pm
No, they are often wearing some sort of chain mail or armour and regular religious garb that isnt supposed to be sexually suggestive in any way. They still dance naked under the moonlight, and I believe they all take part in a hunt of monsters throughout the forests they sometimes inhabit. Mostly with just some sort of holy symbol on a chain wrapped around their waists I think. Other than their swords and perhaps some other minor things, or even their long hair, it pretty much classes as just another nude ritual I guess. So their looks to be quite a few of those, yes.
Still, while I might be mistaken, I think its generally not supposed to be a prerequisite for Eilistraeens to be naked all that often. With a more serious and mature approach I suppose you can take this as just a love of nature and beauty that is common among elves. However, since their Lolth worshipping opposites suggest a dark sexual side, I suppose its likely that this is supposed to be a more pure and good sexual side.
I mean, you can just forget the outrageous notion that people would lay off sexualised ideas with the Eilistraeen faith after the mess the Lolth worshipping Drow create. Nope, they just HAD to put something in.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:39 am
AS far as other matriarchal societys that are benevolent…elistrae is a decent example, but lets not forget about the witchs of rashmen, the women there rule, but are not nessicarily evil
June 1st, 2007 at 5:40 am
The who of what?
June 1st, 2007 at 6:09 am
Rashemen is a nation in the Forgotten Realms, they live alongside Thay and tend to have to defend their nation against the Red Wizards quite often, along with other enemies. I wouldn’t say its really a matriarchy, but the witches command a good deal of the respect and power there. The males tend to be berserker warriors and the more military leaders, or sometimes enchanters, while the witches make up for the bulk of the magic users, and I suppose leaders of the country. But I suppose at the end of the day, its down to what you would specifically class what makes up a matriarchy/patriarchy.
And I believe its normally a contest between the witches Rashemen and the Red Wizards of Thay. And the Red Wizards dont seem to be very successful most of the time.
At least, I think thats pretty much how it goes. Im not really a Forgotten Realms buff or anything, I just like to know about some of the video games I play, so someone might be able to give a better answer than me.
June 1st, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Seconding that the rulers of Rashemen are female and non evil. The structure of the society, however, is patriarchal…it just so happens that the patriarchs are female (as is true for Lloth worshipping drows).
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:49 pm
It’s been awhile since I read the Drizzt series, but thanks for putting a finger on what troubled me throughout most of the series — namely, that the only female-dominated society I’d read up to that point just so happened to be chaotic evil? Ugh.
Also, it really confused me that the drow were dark-skinned. Don’t things that live exclusively underground tend toward albinohood? There was something very suspect to me about that decision.
June 13th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
i disagree with what you said about drow society in that
“It is anarchy based on the worst stereotypes of women–it’s a soap opera. It’s no more empowering than a middle school locker room.
If this is the best example of women running matters; it’s not making a very good case for allowing women to have power.”
even if Ra.Salavator had made it so that men where in charge and women subservient the drow would STILL be chaotic and “catty”.women being in charge has nothing to do with there behavior as a race.there diety and how they are brought up affects them not the sex of there goddess or leaders.
salavtor didnt create the drow to attack or in anyway offend women he created them because he needed a villian,namely an evil race that the forces of good “elves,humans,dwarfs” could fight/live in fear of.in my opinion people are getting just a bit too offended at something as trivial as “o no a race of elves that just so happens to be ruled by women is very,very evil” like a few people have said, your looking to far into it.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
I just picked up the graphic adaptations of the Drizzt novels, which are, more than likely, cleaned up for public consumption. I’ll leave that as it is and continue with what may be loosely called “insights”. For the record, I’m a white, male. And my website might be wrong…
First and foremost, I see Drow society as a completely brazen and none too subtle stab at feminism and female power. I use Drow in my own settings, and I use them to their full, bloody extent. I also know that there are very successful societies that are matrilineal and matriarchal in the real world. So while I disagree with the portrayal of women, that doesn’t limit my use of it as a storytelling tool. I won’t get into the SM stuff, as I think that’s probably a bit of an add on by overzealous gamers. Not having read the source material (and most likely never will, by the way) I don’t know.
Second, every company, and I mean EVERY company, knows that sex sells. Hell, I clicked on the link for the Exalted pic and saved it immediately, I’ll admit it. It’s part them and part us. Mind, I also understand the difference between beauty and “hotness”. The girl in the pic may be hot, but I’ll never know if she’s beautiful.
In closing, it’s a fantasy, and a male one at that. If you don’t like it, nobody’s forcing you to buy into it. Hell, I don’t recommend anything from Wizards of the Coast. I think d20’s crap (awaits the tomatoes). If you want female empowerment in your games, you have to do it yourself, or it’s tainted by us men.
And you’re not looking too far into it. Constructive criticism is at the heart of true art.
June 14th, 2007 at 10:17 am
Blasphemy: I know that there is slightly more to the Drow than just being a matriarchal society based around a stereotype of women i.e. “catty”. However, just because a certain interpretation of the Drow can argue against that idea, doesnt mean you can simply ignore that point. I mean sure, its possible with some things to simply say “no you misunderstand, thats not way you are supposed to interpret it”. However, since there is very little to compare the Drow to, in Forgotten Realms, or even with most other works of fiction, I dont think its acceptable to try and pull that one in this situation.
I have hardly ever come across a fictional society so blatantly matriarchal and matrilineal as the Drow. And yet to some people the Drow embody the very cream of evil; the villains whose only purpose is to be “evil” and then be defeated by the “goodies”. And because the Drow are such an isolated case, you cant just brush it off with “No, no, no, youre not looking at it the right way!”. By all means Blasphemy, if you can provide me with examples that are practically the same as the situation the Drow create; where they are one of the rare matriarchal societies, yet are completely evil (not to mention with a dark skin colour) Ill be happy to accept your point. But its hard enough to find a normal matriarchal society in fiction, let alone one comparative to the Drow. So it doesnt look good when, by intention or otherwise, one embodies an extremely common and negative stereotype of women.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the Drow. But I am not so naïve as simply ignore the problems they create, because its “trivial” and isnt supposed to be interpreted that way. That’s just making excuses, and making the problem worse.
Ghilemear: I hope you were being sarcastic when you said: “If you want female empowerment in your games, you have to do it yourself, or it’s tainted by us men.”
Just like when the subject of hyper-sexualised female characters comes up, in this situation my disagreements are not entirely selfless. I don’t like seeing women objectified, but I also resent the implication that men are incapable of creating characters that are women in any other way than sex objects. Or being able to view women in any other way, a sucker for sex if you will. And just like with your comment, I dont like being included in the idea that men cannot create something that can also appeal to women without “tainting” it. Or offending them if you prefer.
June 14th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
TheBends: Not quite what I meant. Thank you for bringing up the neccesity for clarification.
I didn’t mean that men shouldn’t make an effort. By all means, men should seek to create intelligent, empowered female characters.
So you’re good, and I’m fair. We’re two. The mass of the movement still has to come from women. It doesn’t mean we can’t help, it just means that female empowerment must be just that. FEMALE empowerment. Male involvement, while helpful, cannot be the basis for the empowerment, or any power derived from it is hollow.
As for the women-as-sex-objects argument, women are just as sexual as men. Sometimes, women -do- want to be seen as sexual. Just not as sexual objects, and not on a constant, 24/7 basis. Sex is a facet of being human, and an intelligently created and written/played character will have that aspect. But as stated, not constantly.
June 16th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Hello everyone!
I really like the drow, but I have too come upon these problems, it’s a bit uneasy about the only matriarcal society beeing evil and all that, but that mostly just makes me wonder why there’s really only ONE matriarcal society. It’s also a little weird (looking at the art you find on internet searching on “drow”) that the female would dress in such unpractical and reveiling manner… Shouldn’t it be the males wearing suck garbs, since the women allready are in power? On the other hand, drow are supposed to be quite obsessed about physical beauty..
Anyway, I really get the feel that the drow (as creation) are victims to sexist influence, I don’t get the picture about sex-crazed domniatrixes from Salvatores books, also there’s very little sex among the drow at all. I get the feeling they’re really too untrustfull to be comfortable naked together with someone they don’t either have totall power over or (in rare case) really love. I think there’s even mentioned in some book the the females of a noble house must have permition from the matron to have her own children (since children can be minions), something that doesn’t really promotes free sex.
About the drow powerstruggles beeing “catty” and soap-opera like, I have to agree to some degree, but then again it’s Lloth’s outspoken desire to have the drow race in chaos. According to some speculations, this could even mean Drizzt beeing favoured by Lloth (since he sure has caused lots of chaos among the drow), and beeing the main reason the drow siege on Mithrall Hall failed (Lloth didn’t like the organization of a united Menzoberranzan).
And in all honesty, the drow male are atleast as “catty” and soap-opra like (look at Breagn D’arthe).
So I guess I agree to some extent drow having problems with beeing sexistic, but in the end it’s fantasy, and it’s what you make of it in your own imagination.
Ah yes, sorry for gramatical errors and the like, I’m not english, and a bit tired as well
June 16th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
In closing, it’s a fantasy, and a male one at that. If you don’t like it, nobody’s forcing you to buy into it.
In other words, get bent, ladies, we want our soft-core pr0n and we don’t want you rolling dice in your clubhouse.
“Sex sells,” by the way, really means “sexualized depictions of women sell to a particular segment of the heterosexual male market”. That’s fine if you’re a gaming company and you don’t care about selling product to a) female customers and b) male customers who aren’t really into mixing porn and gaming.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:13 am
Mythago, you have incredibly strong points. I also like your second paragraph. FTW.
As for what I meant: We live in a capitalist society. This has its ups and downs. Up- We have control of the market. Down- So does every bucktoothed, over/undersexed male. How much market share do you think we, as intelligent buyers, have. I will tell you, it is not that much. Again, I have more market share than most people on this board, being a hetero male. Power which I use with as much wisdom as I can muster (I await your tomato with grace and aplomb). But as someone who actually reads the book before buying it, I have very little power. Sometimes less than an empowered woman, as some men perceive such behavior as unmasculine. (They might even buy TWO, just to prove how manly THEY are. But I digress…)
Sex sells to more than just a fractional bit of hetero males, as you assert. In fact, I’d say it sells to quite a majority of hetero males, a lot of gay males, some gay females and even a few straight females. I know sex sells to me to an extent. More like, gets my attention. Let me translate how this works for me: I like women, and I like sex. If the two are combined, my attention will be gotten, even if I decide that the content is crap. I might not buy, but it grabs my attention.
I also think you’re confusing sexual appeal with the act of sex itself. While I don’t think the “porn and gaming” comment is completely unfounded (a particularly pent up GM I knew constructed a “vagina room”…don’t ask, really), I also don’t think its the intention of every male who likes the attractive girl on the cover to subjugate all of NPC womanhood into servile sex-slavery through games.
I really want some questions, since I feel like questions will help clear this up. If you’re willing to fire away, I’ll answer any questions you might have about why I buy what I buy. I think there’s a piece of understanding we’re missing, and I really want to find it.
June 18th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Hmm…ntrstng pnts ll. t’s t bd thy r nsnly prnd, s ny gd tht my cm frm ths dscssn s lst n yr nn rmblngs. ts bvsly pprnt tht y s sxsm nd rcsm vrywhr, vn whr t sn’t, nd t pnt t whr y r rght nd wrng, jst sn’t wrth th ffrt.
h, th sngl mst pwrfl hmnd n th Frgttn Rlms sttng s th fml trnl rlr f th cntry glrnd. Sh ws/s ls n f th wtchs f Rshmn mntnd prvsly hr. n fct th Svn Sstrs, n f whch s drw, r ll sm f th mst pwrful ppl n xstnc n ths sttng.
Disemvoweled by Moira, because she’s insanely paranoid. Githereal, if you can’t post without being abusive, I will invite you to post elsewhere.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Oh, I see how it is, disagreement is abuse. No worries that I didn’t abuse anybody, what I called paranoid was the argument, not the person. And the rest of the post had valid comments, but nevermind. I see the way the wind blows, and will gladly take my own leave.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:54 am
You didn’t disagree with anything, you called it insanely paranoid inane ramblings. You didn’t address any of the comments you said were valid.
June 19th, 2007 at 12:15 am
While I understand you frustration, I think you’re misinformed about drow origins, which has lead you to some false conclusions about Drow society being some sort of stab at feminism.
Put simply. Drow are cursed elves. Like all elves, they identified with nature, but Lolth was the elf patron of spiders, and usually takes the form of a black widow with an elf head. The way she turned on the elves, the way the women use the men and throw them away, etc., is more an allusion to the black widow spider than to how “women are evil.”
I’m assuming that Gary Gygax wanted to make anti-elves, so he picked a part of nature we see as evil and based a society off of it.
I do understand your frustration with the way drow females always have to be in these leather bikini dominatrix outfits, but I think that is a reflection of a much larger problem, and is not directly linked to Drow.
June 19th, 2007 at 9:23 am
I have to disagree somewhat with you there Michael. Even though my disagreements are purely of my own interpretation of Drow history and society. I believe Araushnee (later turned into Lolth) was originally a lesser goddess among the Seldarine and had something to do with fates, or “weaver of fates” (something like that, perhaps hinting at “spiders” already, Im not sure). And that she created the Ilythiiri or “Drow” as they were later known, and was later put in charge of their “fate”. I believe this is why the Drow are different in appearance from other Elves (perhaps just as Avariel (winged Elves) bear semblance to the Goddess Aerdrie Faenya, Drow bear Araushnees appearance). That is why in the history before and during the Crown Wars the “Drow” or Ilytiiri as they were known I believe, were still clearly divided from other Elves. I don’t think “Lolth” was ever the Elven Goddess of spiders, but due to her “transformation” into a demon when she betrayed the Seldarine because of her lust for power, she gained a liking to them. I believe mainly because of what she was transformed into (spider like in appearance I think).
I have heard things about the Drow being “cursed” or “corrupted” after the Crown Wars, but I believe due to their differences in worship and actions because of the gods they had “turned” to, they were simply driven off underground by all the other Elves. A book I have seems to make mention that Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun originally had the most worshippers, but after showing no interest in the Drow for a long time, Lolth began to take interest. And after gaining much influence and worshippers among the Ilythiiri, this explains why she was so instrumental when the Drow were driven into the Underdark. And I also believe that because of their “connection” to Lolth due to their origins, the Ilythiiri were always treated with contempt right from the beginning.
Now still, bearing in mind I have a tremendous amount of sympathy towards the Drow interpretation of that particular history, I still think it is both the fault of the Drow, Lolth, Seldarine and Surface Elves alike that the Drow as a race were manipulated and “corrupted” into something so “evil”.
That at least is my own personal understanding of how things turned out, mainly through some official pieces of information, and through my own preference. So it is by no means the definitive version of how things go, that is for certain. There are plenty more people out there who I imagine probably have a much better (and truer) understanding of this than my own version, so like I said, my disagreement with you on the Drow origins is not quite as important.
Still, as I have said before here, the original intention behind the creation of the Drow still doesnt exclude this line of questioning problems that the Drow create. Now Im more than ready to agree how important somebody’s original intentions are when doing something, but the association is still there, and you cant just shrug it off. I agree that the Drow arent just a stab at women of the real world and feminism, or something reflected by racist views due to their darker skin colour. However, its not rocket science to see that the only type of Elf that can easily and most often be described as evil happens to be the only “dark” coloured elf. Or that the most blatant and easily recognisable matriarchy in the game is perhaps the most evil society in the game, regardless of matriarchal or patriarchal structure.
I dont enjoy having to repeatedly be reminded how suggestive the Drow can be, particularly with such sensitive subjects of sexism and racism. But Id rather honestly accept that they are valid concerns to work with, than just shrug it off, because (which in some ways I admit is true) the Drow at their core arent really meant to suggest that. Its not like anyone here is trying to scrap the Drow because they are so deliberately insidious and offensive. I just dont think it hurts to admit that the Drow arent the most well constructed race as regards to what they can be interpreted as.
I still like the Drow though, and I like to think that the Drow does need mature and understanding fans that can accept its faults as a fantasy race, yet still enjoy it.
June 19th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
I thought the matriarchal/spider thing was kinda obvious, if you know much about the biology of spiders.
I think there’s a piece of understanding we’re missing
Yes, there is. It’s the conflation of “sex” with “sexualized imagery that’s designed to appeal to a certain segment of the heterosexual male market.” After all, if “sex” sells, then wouldn’t a gaming company do just as well selling a gaming supplement showing two hot men kissing on the cover? Would copies of Lords of the Gay Seraglio fly off the shelves, as guys like you who agree that “sex sells” rush to buy them?
To reiterate: guys who justify softcore porn in gaming by saying “Sex sells” really mean “This product is designed with a particular kind of sexualized marketing that I find appealing, or that is at least intended for guys like me to find appealing.” It’s not SEX, period.
And that kind of marketing is just as welcoming to women as putting a big sign on the product that says “GO AWAY, BITCHES.”
June 20th, 2007 at 8:29 am
So, because Drow are cursed, everything about them is okie-dokie when viewed through that lense, and shouldn’t be examined further.
Because women being “cursed” has never, ever been used by a patriarchal structure to remind us that women are duplicitous, evil, and worthy of the treatment they receive.
June 20th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
I *love* this board. I haven’t had a discussion like this in ages.
Mythago: You have a point, and I was wrong. Looking at my argument, I’m positive that I was being a defensive ass, and apologize.
In my defense(and to backpedal like a rat just a little bit faster), I do look at books that have men on the cover. I admit also that usually these do not reify or sexualize men in the same way women often are, but I still think there’s something to putting a human figure on a cover, rather than some impersonal designs. Then it’s just a matter of convincing marketers that putting people on the cover works, rather than just scantily clad, oversexualized women. And here’s hoping my html isn’t too rusty, otherwise my tags are showing.
For my, rather lascivious, part, I’d still like a forum for the latter.
Also, Lords of the Gay Seraglio is funny to the point of snarfage, but I’m sure you knew that.
For the record, I’m with MP on the “cursed” issue.
June 20th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Ghilemear, we use actual HTML code around these here parts, with angle brackets for the tags rather than square ones. I’ve edited your comment so the tags work.
And thanks, we like our board too. Don’t worry, you’re not the first person to backpedal like a rat. I’ve been known to do it myself once in a while. So welcome, feel free to hang out and chat.
June 21st, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Thanks for the correction, and for the welcome! I end my spammage.