Idealizing Fantasy Bodies: Whose ideal?
Andrea Rubenstein writes an awesome paper for the Iris Network on Idealizing Fantasty Bodies in World of Warcraft. Congrats to O’Danu for the cite!
Andrea Rubenstein writes an awesome paper for the Iris Network on Idealizing Fantasty Bodies in World of Warcraft. Congrats to O’Danu for the cite!
May 27th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Great article. I find the comparison chart of races and sexes especially interesting. In character design as visually focused as in WoW, it’s very important to make characters easily and quickly identifiable by their outline only. The chart shows that you can tell the races apart even at a quick glance, but also the sexes. I’m guessing that was an important design decision for Blizzard. People make a big deal about the sex of their avatars and want it to show. It would be interesting to see a different design approach for this, if it’s possible for a game with mainstream appeal.
I think it’s a bit misleading to take the characters out of context, btw. *Everything* in WoW is stylized, everything from landscapes to the smallest plant. I know we’re not against stylization here, but I think it’s worth remembering that character design doesn’t exist in a vacuum in WoW.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Why?
May 27th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
I agree with MP on this hertza, especially when you take into account that with MMO’s there is a certain amount of personalisation and freedom (supposedly?) thats supposed to come with the character you create, or can create. Its *your own* avatar, so why should it conform to any shape/size/age/race, unless you specifically want it to do that? (Unless I misunderstood your meaning?)
The character outlines shouldnt be already assigning anything to peoples own characters before they have even begun creating them, at least ideally and in my own opinion.
However, one reason I had to stop playing WoW was because it didnt cater to my own roleplaying needs. I didnt feel unique enough, and was never immersed, just absorbed. Exactly as I would be I in any other FPS multiplayer game for example.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Mighty Ponygirl:
It’s important because the human brain picks out basic shapes and lines before anything else. If you can identify a character that zips by quickly in the din of battle, is far away or is in low resolution, you’ve done it thanks to it being instantly recognizable through visual cues you can pick up and process in milliseconds. It’s a very basic character design concept that’s the same in comics and film.
In WoW, they’ve apparently decided that race, sex and class are the three most basic identifiers, and it shows right away on your character. How would you make sex significant yourself in such a game, if it has been decided to be important? Maybe if you could pick a body type? Would people stray from the ideals if they were given the chance though? Would they pick the chubby body type? I don’t know.
The Bends:
It’s not about conforming to a certain ideal. If you’ve decided that sex is a relevant part of the avatar’s identity, it’s important to make it show on characters. I agree that the range of choices are limited and comforming to one ideal only though, and that’s in a game that has a very limited character customization to begin with. I’m no big MMO player, but my impression is that you usually get a bit more to play with.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Hertza: As it’s been pointed out in the article and elsewhere, yes, they would.
May 28th, 2007 at 9:59 am
They should, yes, but as long as providing more choices will just tickle the fancies of a minority of players, we probably won’t see Blizzard doing it. It seems they’re very good at giving a lot of people exactly what they want. Then there’s limitations of other design choices, technology, economy, marketing, etc. A designer can’t easily escape those things. It would be interesting to see someone do more than just pointing out the flaws in the designs, but suggest what can realistically be done. As a designer I’d like to be able to do something good that works for a broad audience as well, you know?
May 28th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Just about any choice will tickle the fancy of a minority. That’s the point of customization. Each choice makes a character more unique than the others. That’s why WoW players go nuts over special outfits, weapons, etc. All of these things were created by… designers. So, instead of creating more epic greaves or special capes, a designer could choose to use a little bit of that technology, economy, and marketing to offer less sexist physiques.
Also, while playing a “heavy” character may be something that only a few may opt for, I bet dollars to donuts that the women players, if given the option between a “normal” female physique and a pornalicious female physique, a lot more women would opt for a normal figure than some ultra sexified figure that’s just likely to increase the amount of harassment they receive.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
I had considered the design of it all, and the visual “look” Blizzard might have been aiming for. I still think thats just a cheap cop out though. Is it so outrageous to ask for a little diversity in character size? Specifically with WoW that is, because its either “meaty male” or “flimsy female” (at least *always* compared to their male counterpart that is). There is no room to ask if a female warrior can at least *look* somewhat comparative to a male in strength. Or if a mage could go without those stupid meat hooks, because they simply dont suit him. Or just whatever the hell else they may want to do with their character.
Im not in any real position to judge, but if you were to ask me, its either all due to laziness or ignorance.
Its not that Blizzard are very good at giving lots of people what they want. Its that Blizzard are good at forcing everyone to use all they are prepared to give. Most players I imagine either dont care, or simply have to make do with what they are given. But obviously since we are having this discussion, not without complaint.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
I already suggested adding a body type slider, so I’m not disagreeing with you. But that’s a trivial addition. I’m asking what else can be realistically done. A total revolution might be fun to imagine, but do you really think it’s feasible? I don’t know about a game like WoW. Myself I have to stick to a more gradual evolution of design. If a design decision like removing all superficial differences between sexes is to be taken, you’re going to have a good reason for it. I’m sure there are good ways of doing it, but criticism coming from outside game design tends to lack a bit in constructive ideas. I think it would help ground the criticism a bit, you know?
May 28th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
The differences are not superficial, and pretending that they are is playing ignorant. I won’t run these laps because you’re being intellectually lazy.
May 28th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I’m not saying they are superficial. They’re obviously not now. But if you want more variation AND significant visual distinction of the kind I described above, you need an alternative design concept. Alternatively you need a design concept where sex means little or nothing, that still appeals to gamemakers and players in general.
I’m not being intellectually lazy - I’m the one asking what can be done about this, while you seem to be content to say that there’s something wrong.
May 28th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
You’re arguing that making female bodies less sexed-up is superficial. It’s right up there for everyone to read. You’re also trying to say that we’re arguing that we need to make a game where sex means little to nothing, which is not what we’re arguing. What we’re saying is that women don’t have the choice about whether or not they want to play a porned-up avatar or not. You do understand that difference, don’t you? And yes, you are being intellectually lazy, unless you’d rather have the alternative explanation as to your complete obtuseness on this thread.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Hertza, a character design that allows more than one body type per sex isnt making it so sex means little to nothing in the game. That would mean that we had climbed out of one whole and into another with exactly the same problem. This current design where ALL males are muscle bound freaks and ALL females have exaggerated porned up curves is because physically, hardly anyone can relate to them. So how is anyone going to relate to characters who’s sex means little to nothing?
I realise Blizzard hardly went for complete realism with the WoW avatars, but since there is supposed to be a measure of “roleplaying” in the game, its difficult for people who dont want to roleplay someone with exactly the same body type as everyone else on the game.
And the solution to the problem of lack of choice when it comes to character size is simple. More choice.
Unless you were hoping for an outline of a new character design system, where we detail every step, and every minute detail?
May 28th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
“If a design decision like removing all superficial differences between sexes is to be taken…”
Note the “if”.
“Alternatively you need a design concept where sex means little or nothing…”
I missed an “if” here (”…if you need a…”). My bad.
So, what I’m doing here is not telling you how it is. I’m actually suggesting two possible solutions.
1) Removing differences between sexes. It’s a possible solution, but I don’t think you’re advocating it. I’m just throwing it out there.
2) Changing the possible variation of sex-based appearance. Another possible solution.
Now, given one of these (or another solution altogether), how can it be accomplished? Is it a drastic, revolutionary reimagining of avatar design, or can it be accomplished with relatively small measures like a body type selection in WoW?
I hope that’s clear enough for some actual discussion. Making myself look like a terrible sexist pig who’s here to ruin all your fun isn’t very constructive. I apologize for that.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
There is no reason that a player needs to be able to recognize the sex of a character in WoW from the silhouette.
The race makes sense, because of the different racial abilities and how they affect gameplay, especially in pvp. But since there is NO difference between male and female in actual gameplay, the only thing that’s affected is how the character looks.
If my female night elf priest gets a set of armor and a male night elf priest gets the same set of armor, you can guarantee that my set will usually be skintight or revealing, while the male just wears something that actually looks like loose robes.
If I make a night elf female for ANY class, I’m going to look like a candy-colored fantasy no matter what, and most armor is going to contribute to that look. I can’t go out and find something that hides the shape of that body. I can’t make my night elf warrior look any buffer than my night elf priest, even though one spends all her time doing magic, the other doing physical training and using weapons that would give anyone some heft to their figure.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
TheBends:
“Hertza, a character design that allows more than one body type per sex isnt making it so sex means little to nothing in the game.”
As I wrote above, this was just a hypothesis. Since there’s a general lack of suggestions here, I thought I’d start by suggestion two possibilities, one of which could be doing away with sex and gender altogether. It could work in some games, right?
“Unless you were hoping for an outline of a new character design system, where we detail every step, and every minute detail?”
No. You don’t have to be a design genius to come up with examples for discussion. The ability to copy and paste a link to a screenshot from a game with a better solution is a very good start. It’s not hard to come up with a general solution like a selection of body types in WoW either, right?
“And the solution to the problem of lack of choice when it comes to character size is simple. More choice.”
It’s not THAT simple in reality. Someone has to design and create all new chocies. For a choice that very few use you’re going have to convince your boss it’s still good, or better try to design so variation becomes more desirable. Also, someone has to code the handling of thousands, if not millions, of possible permutations and cache them effectively in memory. Even with the very few choices in WoW as it is, I’m sure you know what it’s like to enter a busy city.
But technicalities aside, there’s also restrictions arising from other design. Avatars have to fit into the world in general, which usually means some stylization. If WoW aims to have action-hero avatars, it could easily break the general image if you could make a couch potato avatar. That’s an exaggeration, btw, but I hope you get my point here.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
nimnix:
“There is no reason that a player needs to be able to recognize the sex of a character in WoW from the silhouette.”
I actually agree, but obviously WoW creators and players don’t. They’ve made the design decision to make it highly visible. My guess it that they think that players feel that sex is a central part of a character’s identity. Why that is, or if Blizzard are totally wrong about it, I don’t quite know. It doesn’t have to do with stats however, although that’s a very good reason. You want to tell quickly if someone coming over the hill over yonder is loaded with purplez, right?
“If my female night elf priest gets a set of armor and a male night elf priest gets the same set of armor, you can guarantee that my set will usually be skintight or revealing…”
Yeah, i’ve seen those armors. It’s just plain silly with the big differences in cover. Sure, a fantasy armor doesn’t have to be realistic, but *at least* make the male and female variants cover the same parts!
May 28th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
You’re making it sound like changing the avatars is some sort of epic overhaul of the game. Do yourself a favor, load up NeverWinter Nights ONE. This is a game that’s several years old now. Notice how you can slide the weight of a character up and down so that the character can be as fat or as thin as the person playing them would like. NWN2 took this feature out, sadly.
If you want to take it a step further, give someone the option of saying “I don’t want DD cupsize. I’d like a B or a C cupsize. I don’t want to jiggle.” If a woman (or a man) wants to play a woman with bodaceous ta-tas, that’s fine, but women who already have them IRL may want to experience what it’s like to be someone a little less curvy.
Using the existing spreads for things like hair, face, and clothing, people can use these tools to make a character that is as masculine, feminine, or androgynous as they would like to be. It’s not about forcing anyone to be anything. It’s about letting people
Through these options, a person can determine how they want to be represented in the online world.
Both of these suggestions point to one primary point of order which is in the title of the post: whose ideal. If a woman isn’t given a good set of choices and most or all of her choices involve underwear-model stomachs, Jello-mold boobs, and Barbie legs, those choices aren’t there for her, they’re there for the men playing the game to have some candy to look at.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
^ letting = letting people choose.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Mighty Ponygirl:
I’ve played NWN. It’s a single player game that is nowhere near the scope of WoW, so it’s not a fair comparison. It could very well be quite a big change, technically and design-wise. Complete avatar freedom makes WoW into Second Life, with all its silliness. That’s also an exaggeration, btw, but I’m using it to illustrate the sliding scale of design freedom and the different purposes it serves. “More choices” is a good start, but a bit simplistic if you approach this from a design standpoint.
However, I get your point. In fact, I got it a long time ago, along with the ideals and choices. Am I to understand that the answer to my very simple question far above (whether a body type selection in WoW would suffice) is “yes”?
May 28th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Body type selection would be a good place to start — along with what nimnix was saying earlier about clothing and armor.
May 28th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Body types would be quite easy to put it. They already scale the same armor and equipment to different body part sizes in WoW.
Going a bit further, they could have different body language settings too, not just dances. That way all women don’t have to be so seductive and smooth. I’m sure some bishi blood elf guys would like that. Or burly dwarves, for that matter.
May 28th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Actually, NWN supports multiple types of gameplay, including online multiplayer.
Second Life is made specifically to support custom content, hence all the silliness. Silliness is put in by the users. It’s not intended to be a goal-oriented game the way WoW and other MMOs are. That doesn’t prevent designers from putting some thought into avatar variation in MMOs. They just have to include this in their design considerations.
May 28th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
“It’s not THAT simple in reality.”
I know, but not only am I not trained to do any more than that, I am not employed or paid to do any more than that (thats why I asked how much more is really needed other than customer criticism?). Thats the best I am willing or able to give, and if Blizzard couldnt or wouldnt bother than they would be letting certain paying customers down. Although, if you look at evidence like nimnix’s clothing and gender situations, Blizzards seems to have a certain target in the market who they only aim to please. And if anyone else doesnt like it, tought shit apparently? (not that they have actually said that, its just the impression it gives me when such things happen)
Still, its all pretty much irrelevent anyway as I imagine the kind of changes suggested would be impossible now thats its been out so long and is so popular. Its something that should have been done during WoW’s design, because Im sure you cant go changing WoW in that manner now.
Still, I stand by my view that simple changes in body shape dont drastically affect the game, or at least this particular type of game.
May 29th, 2007 at 8:10 am
It would also be nice to have different postures available. One reason I like Undead so much is that you can get away from pretty and sexy with the women, and they don’t make me cringe when they sit down. Orcs, tauren, trolls, humans, night elves (I can’t remember how blood elf women sit off-hand) all kneel and sit back on their heels in a posture a Gorean kajira might envy. There’s no reason, gameplay or otherwise, to have the majority of women in World of Warcraft sit in such submissive postures except for, yeah, sexism.
HertzaHaeon, you’re always on the other side of the sexualized toon issue from most of us here. We’ve been over all the arguments before on this blog, in threads in which you’ve taken part. Demanding that we start from first principles feels less than completely honest. The way women are portrayed in games isn’t a problem for you. It’s not for a whole lot of men. It’s very much a problem for most women who play games or have children who play them.
There’s no damn good reason that Blizzard couldn’t have given players more body shape options. Even if it’s just a clicky thing with
SexyNormal/Athletic/Skinny/Heavy. And yes, I’ve heard men complain too. My male friends who play casters hate that they have to use a big, over-muscled toon to do it with. It breaks immersion for them.(TheBends, if Blizzard can introduce two entirely new species to the game in an expansion, they could add some body options in a subsequent one.)
Me? I’m still waiting for the game that lets me play a dwarf woman with a beard. ALL DWARVES SHOULD HAVE BEARDS, DAMMIT!
May 29th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Yeah moira, I was expecting the burning crusade to come up at some point, but I just thought about complications for older aspects in the game. WoW has been going on for a long time with a lot of following, so I would think changing all that older stuff that people have been playing and earning for so long probably couldnt be pulled off without complications. Well, at least thats all I can think of when the idea to change something so heavily used in game comes up. Im perhaps just thinking along the lines of how many users there have been for other older races, while introducing a completely new race doesnt have that same problem.
But what do I know anyway? I suppose it could be pulled off with another expansion like you suggested. Like weve all said though, a game that makes almost all females (undead really cant be classed as having a sex right?) in the game sit in such a submissive posture, and having such drastically (sexically?) different attire from their male counterparts, probably wouldnt even care about such things. Let alone have the inclination to make such a change. Or at least that would be my guess, given my impression of those problems from the game.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:53 am
I do remember reading somewhere (about a year ago, so for the life of me I can’t remember where) about the reason for having delimited body types being a technical limitation with regard to designing armor, etc. Fine, as far as it goes. No slider. But why not have a choice of two or three body types per each gender/race? Especially including less “sexed up” versions. And perhaps a choice on first wearing that robe or breastplate for “skin tight” or “loose” (for both male and female avatars). That, I think, would work within the design limitations of WoW’s world.
Since WoW debuted, LOTR Online has come out, and it has a slider, so obviously the technology has advanced. Maybe in an upcoming expansion?
May 29th, 2007 at 11:11 am
I just thought about this, like 2 seconds ago, but I wonder why they (any of the games I play where you get to choose character features) don’t have a “scars” section. Wouldn’t it be fun to have a gashed out eye or upper lip snarl or something? I know usually when I’m rpging tabletop, someone has a visible scar somewhere. Or a seperate tatoo feature. They had something like that for NWN (but no facial tatoos), but not NWN2 (you can have facial tatoo’s if you choose the right head for it) and they don’t have anything like that in WoW. That would certainly make it more diverse. Then again, sometimes too many options really bogs a game down, so IDK. *shrugs*
May 29th, 2007 at 11:18 am
“Going a bit further, they could have different body language settings too, not just dances.”
heh… yeah it could be tied into their agility or something.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:19 am
That’s a good point — and I think that it’s part of the question of how aggressive and intimidating a character can appear in the game. Scars, snears, eyepatches, along with posture and clothing, can do a lot to make your character more formidable to the other players.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:20 am
…oh, and why isn’t there a race in which the female is actually bigger than the male. I know that’s true for some species on this planet alone, so why couldn’t it be true for fantasy games?
May 29th, 2007 at 11:51 am
They do have the option for scars in LOTR Online. The character creation was almost enough for me to buy the game, but not quite enough. (the game play was a pale imitation of WoW, and I play for the gameplay, mostly, not just to look at curvy dwarf butt or tiny NE butt)
(my femme watcher side erupting… watch out :D)
May 29th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Because then us mayulz wouldnt have anything going our way at all!
I think its probably due to the fact that plenty of men who are involved in the making of games and whatnot would find the idea distasteful because of their pride. Im only guessing here, but just like with Dwarven women not having beards. Why is that? Because even though its fantasy, Dwarven women still have to submit to the whole male oriented view I suppose.
Still, Drow females are supposed to be bigger than males, though I dont think its shown that often.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Drow society is matrilineal and matriarchal, with women in the warrior and ruler roles, though I don’t know about the sexual dimorphism. All the standard Dungeons and Dragons PC races have smaller females than males, including elves. Judging by that, I’d guess that Drow females are probably smaller than males. Maybe I’m wrong.
For a really nifty example of sexual dimorphism in the real world, check out the Tremoctopus genus. (Watch the video, too! They’re pretty animals.)
May 29th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I think its always written at least, that females are the larger sex when it comes to Drow. Im not entirely sure myself though, because Im not really that familiar with D&D outside of video games, but I think its got something to do with certain types of spiders being the larger sex, and actually eating their mates I think. And what with the whole spider themed goddess, I just added it up.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I tend to be a bit skeptical of this sort of Drow-as-means-of-women’s-empowerment — I mean, how many Drizz’t clones are trotting around the various online D&D realms? I think that too often men play Drow males as Drizz’t because they’ve got a persecution complex (”Women really have all the power! Men are downtrodden! But not me, I’m a rebel! I won’t submit!”).
Similarly, when your entire online culture is so steeped in male privilege and objectification of women (in all the ways ennumerated upon above), having a race where the women are “in charge” seems like a simple fetish object — it’s no more empowering to a woman to play the role of the dominatrix than it is to have her pole-dancing for you. You’re still dictating a set of behaviors that she is to adhere to in a sexual conversation.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
MPG: True. Drizz’t is a fucking plague. And the Drow are supposed to be seriously evil, which again doesn’t particularly lend itself to a feminist reading.
It’s a tangent, but I’ve never liked the fantasy-world convention where evil is something external, a force that’s out there waiting to corrupt innocent people. Or not-so-innocent people. How could there really be people who genuinely thought of themselves as evil? Even the people who ran the camps at Dachau and Auschwitz didn’t consider themselves to be evil. Maybe they had to do some distasteful things, but it was for a good cause, right? I like more complex, mature depictions of good and evil, and try to write it into my own work.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Moira:
I’m not demanding anything from you. I’m *asking* you, because I think some people here might have some interesting opinions and ideas. As it turns out, I was right. I’m just sorry your preconcieved and polarized notions of me makes it a bit tricky to get to it, but that’s the internet, I guess.
ODanu:
I don’t think body types present that kind of technical limitations. Like I wrote above, armor pieces are already scaled depeneding on different race body types. A gnome gets the same shoulder pads a human does, only smaller. Scaling them according to a few body type presets wouldn’t be too hard.
What is a technical challenge is keeping all body and equipment parts in memory. That’s apparent in any big city in WoW, with all the popups. But seeing how Blizzard keeps adding equipment, races, monsters, etc, I think they’re not pushing any memory limits yet. So technically, I think Blizzard could add body types, body markings and more varyign animations. I don’t know if WoW has many roleplayng players and enough focus on social interaction to make it worthwhile though. It sounds like great ideas for another MMO.
Mighty Ponygirl:
I’m guessing the general coolness of evil elves conflicts with the difficulties for your general power-tripping player to play an inherently inferior role. Also, I can’t help but think about the insane obsession with the slightest percieved power imbalance in WoW. In my experience, roleplaying as a male in a matriarchal society requires a level of social interaction and maturity that most online games seem to lack. Unfortunately it seems like something better suited for pen-and-paper RPGs.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
I never really bothered with the Drizzt-clone argument myself, as I said Im not familiar with real D&D and playing with other, and I have reasons (excuses…). Plus Im not without some of my own dislikes when it comes to the character Drizzt, (despite not hating him). Still, I really do like the Drow in a particular kind of way thats difficult for me to put across. Part of it is a kind of visual part of it, just like say….. Midna on Twilight Princess, because I think it fits well with the kind of personality I like to see and play.
Plus I like the Drow because they arent in my view, naturally evil. Ive heard a few pretty bizarre things about them before, but I always like them because I dont think it should be left at that, that there must be more than just “evil”. This is like my views on Ganondorf in the Zelda thread. Kind of like saying “Evil? Thats it just evil? Can you give me any more than that? No? Well Ill make it up myself then” (talking to myself there). I suppose thats in some ways me reacting to what you suggested moira.
Ive never considered the whole female-centric Drow as anything positive. In fact Ive only heard negatives when it comes the matriarchal society and how “evil” the Drow are as suggestive of that. Normally I just ignore or work around that part. Still I do like the Drow, and despite that whole Drizzt clone mess I cant see any problems other than any say, Tiefling character. (and I do see quite a few of those in what little aspects of D&D I see)
May 29th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Also, apologies for hijacking this and steering it into Drow territory….
May 29th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
The Drow are an interesting comparison with games like WoW. There certainly aren’t any matriarchal societies there. Among the race bigwigs there’s only one woman, IIRC. With some more equal or empowering world design, it’s much easier to make better character design for females. It makes for a more varied and interesting world too.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Oh, I love Midna, but she’s very much being exploited as a fetish object already in the same way that drow are. I wanted a nice high-res screenshot or faithful drawing of her at the end of TP for my desktop background, and I finally found one that wasn’t all porned-up, or some weird slashy “Midna/Zelda/Link” thing after many hours of very… um… distressing searching.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
There are people who roleplay Drow well, with the kind of mindset that that particular drow culture would create. However most people just pay attention to the trappings of “feminine” power. Add to that how often people just use roleplaying as an excuse for sex games, and you have the major problem with comparing actual, written races based on how players portray them.
Drizz’t and dominatrixes are practically household names for drow among people who don’t read anything past those particular books, and think that’s all drow are. Based on what I know of rpers, the ones who actually pay attention to lore are few and far between. For everyone else, it’s the fame attached to the name they want. Instant recognition of a badass. That’s why there were so many damn Legolas clones when blood elves first came out for WoW. That’s why there were so many Neo clones in the Matrix Online. If there were body types in WoW that looked like Gandalf (not likely ever), you can bet there would be Gandalf clones everywhere.
Game designers, producers, marketers, etc. usually don’t care about faithfully representing original material like lore, they go for what’s easily recognizable, the stereotype. Stereotype-Drow females are an S&M fantasy and easily marketable. But that stereotype barely covers one of the Drow cultures, worshippers of Lolth. Going past a stereotype takes people who actually want to do such a thing and take time to either listen to people who know or do the research themselves.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Im not really familiar with this fetish with the Drow, or even Midna for that matter, and I find it quite confusing and bizarre. Its like with the whole Drow-Matriarchal idea, there is little I normally make of it. Most of the time I just treat it as the way things are, and enjoy it for something completely different. Though its hard to ignore what problems it causes when people take it all into (like you mentioned) the whole “dominatrix” territory, especially with the whips. Its like it set of blaring alarms in someone’s head, and they instantly went for that whole theme. And its annoying, because I want to be able to like them for my own reasons without having to worry about that shit coming up.
Its something I have heard many times before, but I never have to put up with on any occasions myself. When its something that you like for your own reasons, yet people seem to take advantage of it for different reasons. Still, I enjoy playing as a Drow on occasion, and despite its obvious controversial sides, I quite like the Drow as a FR race.
May 29th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
There are in fact two female head-of-faction NPCs in World of Warcraft: the High Priestess Tyrande Whisperwind is head of the Night Elf faction (though Fandral Staghelm very badly wants to be), and Sylvanas Windrunner is head of the Forsaken faction.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Oh right, there are two female rulers. So would you say the overall world design of WoW is good from an equality perspective? It seems to me it’s pretty neutral in that regard. I recall a lot of female NPCs, for example, but I never counted them.
Why the conflict between evil in fiction and feminism, btw? My gamer friends usually think it’s a good think evil isn’t just a male domain anymore. We stay away from D&D and its rigid alignment system though, which makes roleplaying morally ambigious or evil characters more rewarding.
May 29th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Two female rulers does not mean good equality, it means two female rulers.
The conflict between evil in fiction and feminism is mind-numbingly simple: the only culture in D&D that was matrilineal and matriarchal is evil, dominating, and corrupt. The houses are seen as squabling like hens at a pecking party. Now, you tell me — how might that be construed as anti-feminist?
May 29th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Two out of ten rulers obviously isn’t equal, no. I thought it was clear that I was asking about the world besides that, to expand on the thought that character design and world design are connected. I’ll try to be even more clear in the future. Sorry about that.
I was asking of evil in fiction in general. Maybe the conflict between evil and feminism referred to just D&D and the Drow. I’m not big on D&D so I’m going to take your word for Drow socities. Anyway, in general it seems like it’s a good thing that female characters get to have more moral choices, including morally simplistic evil. And as long as you’re careful with dominatrix stereotypes, I guess.
May 29th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Its true about the whole Drow matriarchy, but there are other things about the Drow worth noting that dont appear so sexist. Take for example that the only Drow deity that can be considered “good” happens to be a goddess, Eilistraee, and most of her worshippers are female. They are the only Drow that preach a loving and merciful approach to life. The Drow deity that seeks the most “equality” Vhaeraun, is a male though, but even still despite *saying* he wants equality, his worshippers are still just a “brotherhood”. Plus they are considered evil, in comparison with the Eilistraeens. (perhaps most people are aware of this anyway, but I just felt like mentioning there is more to the Drow than a squabbling matriarchy)
And even when you take into account the whole Drow Matriarchy = evil society, all the other societies hardly come across as perfect. So while it may be the only matriarchal society in Forgotten Realms, its not the only one thats got serious problems. Drow society is simply far more focused than any surface societies (which Im pretty sure are patriarchal) so its “evil” stands out much more than any other. At least, that is my interpretation. Perhaps Im just making excuses though.
That said, I still agree that it looks, and perhaps is, very sexist. But, just like with video games, Im prepared to work around it because of everything else I like about the Drow.
May 29th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
We’ve been saying that the overall design of World o’ Warcraft is not so great as far as the portrayal of women goes. They deserve some credit for not making female characters physically weaker than male characters, but they seemed to put a lot of effort into making female toons look physically weaker, more in line with what men find sexy than with what women might find heroic. In some cases, the alpha character models were changed to fit those images. Which was pretty much the point of the original article.
I know we work around things like this for the sake of being able to play video games, but we’ve been working around them since forever. I want very badly to play a game where I don’t have to work around the sexism and the racism deeply imbedded therein.
May 30th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
I just wanted to give the discussion a heads-up on the drow topic: I’m working on a doozy of a post and I hope to have it up soon.
November 27th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
[...] the Idealizing Fantasy Bodies thread, the conversation turned from body dysmorphia in World of Warcraft to the issue of the Drow [...]